I only realised you were the author of the first letter, that attracted the two letters I quoted from the SMH, after I posted my blog... Sorry about that... shoudda asked...
My point there was that the media through these inaccurate letters keep reinforcing the wrong premises in the general public arena... Even IF THERE IS A DEBATE...
Every time letters like these are published one needs 10 letters with opposing views to reset the proper level... Because these act on EMOTIONS (rabid-anger-passion, etc) while the truth relies mainly on REASON... Reason does not push "buttons". Emotion does... Hence my deliberate sobriquet re the Libs...
Hi Gus, yes, you're right - if you look at today's SMH letters, the focus is entirely on the flinging of "chardonnay insults", whilst the real issue has disappeared from view.
There is no debate, only background noise.
No offence to Margo but I notice that the same thing happens on Webdiary, where a couple of bloggers usually wind-up dominating the space with traded insults, which inevitably have nothing to do with the issue.
The only reason I persevere with the letters page is to access a wider audience &to try& to provoke debate, although I was chuffed to receive half a dozen calls offering positive support for the views expressed in my original letter.
Well here we go, another big mouth screaming about the illegal entry into a country that is known for their savagery and criminal acts against humanity.
Funny Johnboy, not once did I see you mention the attack helicopters that swooped down on defenseless Kurdish tribes, in an attempt to eradicate them off the face of the Earth, because they were nomads.
Not once did I see you mention that Saddam was given an opportunity to let U.N. inspectors do their job.
However, what I did hear, was garbage. Detainees being tortured? I work three jobs, and go to school, in an attempt to place three square meals on my table every day, and a roof over my head, plus the increasing rate of my taxes to pay for this war. While these "detainees" get all of that for free. What did they do to deserve such kindness from us?
Well lets see, they headed up operations for car bombings, they helped to kidnap engineers, that are helping with the rebuilding of their country, and oh yes, lets not forget some even helped the terrorist network known as Al Quaida.
See Johnnyboy, what upsets me the most is that you honestly believe this crap you are shoveling down peoples throats, and then you have the audacity to bother your Prime Minister with these pack of half truths.
Let's get something straight li'l buddy, you say that you were not attacked, and this is an unwarranted war, but to me its been a long time coming. If you don't want to support your Prime Minister then move to . . . might I suggest Bali, in Indonesia. That way you can cry about the mediocrities presented in your plight that you call life, in utter despair.
You want to talk about my country...land of the free, home of the brave, and you dare dishonor the soldiers who gave their life, over nothing? I'd like to "detain" you sir. Funny thing, the Geneva Convention was formed so that mistreatment of prisoners is prohibited, yet in every war, American soldiers have been beaten savagely, and now thier heads are getting cut off, and yet there is always some joker out there who wants to bring to light the fact we cut a couple dogs loose on some terrorists. Don't think you can't be attacked JohnBoy, don't for one minute think it can't happen to you. I thought the same way until 9/11 wiped out my brother, and his two kids.
TalieSin (or whatever your name is), how dare you hide behind a pen name, insinuate you are an American and talk about how you would like to "detain" an Australian citizen who has had the courage to speak out against the new "Butcher of Baghdad" George W Bush and his lap dogs Howard and Blair.
Perhaps you would like to "detain" me as well? No problem. My real name is printed at the bottom of this post. I'll be looking forward to meeting you.
Thanks for your continuing, consistently excellent coverage of the use of torture by our allies & us.
I wanted to also strongly agree with your observation that discussions on important issues all too often devolve into an either low or high-brow slanging match based on fundamentals and absolutes.
In my view & experience, this is a major tactic of neo-conservatives in particular. They know that they distract us mightily from in-depth discussion and proative thinking by successfully engaging us in "black = white" debates. As they live to argue, they never tire, and their mission is accomplished.
Which is why the dreg above is not even worth responding to. I would love to see bloggers here set an example by ignoring such deliberately provocative and unproductive comments, and instead get on with the real discussion.
TalieSin, It sounds to me like you've got some grief and anger issues you need to deal with. We are a country which believes in freedom of speech and your tirade is freely spoken (many on this forum may be surprised you actually got posted) but your comments indicate the forum deny John his freedom of expression.
We are both free countries and therefore need to set examples for the rest of the world which experience torture. Revenge should never be tolerated and nobody has ever said that all Americans are like those that were involved in the Iraqi prisoner scandal. Most people actually understand that the Bush government's biggest critics are the people of the US.
The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment. Robert M. Hutchins
Well here we go, another big mouth screaming about the illegal entry into a country that is known for their savagery and criminal acts against humanity.
WHAT'S MORE SAVAGE: CUTTING SOMEONE'S HEAD OR BOMBING AN ENTIRE VILLAGE FROM 30,000 FEET?
Funny Johnboy, not once did I see you mention the attack helicopters that swooped down on defenseless Kurdish tribes, in an attempt to eradicate them off the face of the Earth, because they were nomads.
THE CIA INCITED THEM TO REVOLT AGAINST SADDAM THEN THE CIA DROPPED THEM LIKE WET SOX...
Not once did I see you mention that Saddam was given an opportunity to let U.N. inspectors do their job.
TO THE CONTRARY SADDAM EVENTUALLY LET THE INSPECTORS ANYWHERE THEY WANTED (after a bit of arm twisting sure) AND PRODUCED A 10,000 PAGES DOCUMENT SHOWING WHERE AND WHEN THE WEAPONS (WMD) HAD BEEN DESTROYED AS WELL AS THE SUPPLIERS WHICH THE US DELETE FROM THE DOCUMENT BEFORE HANDING IT OVER THO THE UN
However, what I did hear, was garbage. Detainees being tortured? I work three jobs, and go to school, in an attempt to place three square meals on my table every day, and a roof over my head, plus the increasing rate of my taxes to pay for this war. While these "detainees" get all of that for free. What did they do to deserve such kindness from us?
MANY DETAINEES ARE ORDINARY INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO WHERE AT"THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME"... SHOULD THEY BE RELEASED THEY WON'T LOVE THE US, WOULD THEY?
Well lets see, they headed up operations for car bombings, they helped to kidnap engineers, that are helping with the rebuilding of their country, and oh yes, lets not forget some even helped the terrorist network known as Al Quaida.
IRAQ WAS DESTROYED BY US BOMBS AFTER 10 YEARS OF SANCTIONS
See Johnnyboy, what upsets me the most is that you honestly believe this crap you are shoveling down peoples throats, and then you have the audacity to bother your Prime Minister with these pack of half truths.
THE LIES ABOUT THE WMDS WERE FULL ON PORKIES
Let's get something straight li'l buddy, you say that you were not attacked, and this is an unwarranted war, but to me its been a long time coming. If you don't want to support your Prime Minister then move to . . . might I suggest Bali, in Indonesia. That way you can cry about the mediocrities presented in your plight that you call life, in utter despair.
WE HAVE BEEN INVITED TO COME AND WORK IN THE US...
You want to talk about my country...land of the free, home of the brave, and you dare dishonor the soldiers who gave their life, over nothing? I'd like to "detain" you sir. Funny thing, the Geneva Convention was formed so that mistreatment of prisoners is prohibited, yet in every war, American soldiers have been beaten savagely, and now their heads are getting cut off, and yet there is always some joker out there who wants to bring to light the fact we cut a couple dogs loose on some terrorists.
1600 US SOLDIERS DEAD.... 100,000 IRAQI DEAD KILLED BY US SOLDIERS.... (INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN)
Don't think you can't be attacked JohnBoy, don't for one minute think it can't happen to you. I thought the same way until 9/11 wiped out my brother, and his two kids.
John, you are in Sydney drinking chardonay and I hear that Warragamba is a couple of clicks above 40 percent full, damn it. That John, means it is 60percent empty and at 61percent empty water restrictions begin in Sydney. There are more than 4.5million people in the suburban area of Sydney, and up herein Qld they are promulgating that there is now 4 million people in the whole state of Queensland.
On the 7.30 Report Kerry O'Brien last night got stuck into National Party leader John Anderson for not voicing more aid for water in the country.
This nation is going merrily along and the Budget was set by Peter Costello to get him to be PM but there are a lot of things very wrong with the Budget. The Gold Coast is running out of water and Brisbane also is not too flash with water. When the Gold Coast begins to run out it will syphon it off from Brisbane.
Water and the lack of it is a bit of a sleeper, and later in the year if Telstra is sold, the country, I mean the people who don't live in the cities will be in very big trouble. When Telstra is sold the Libs will look at the investments where to put that available money. The people who control the cities, the Liberals will invest all that money in shares in the cities for the cities. John Anderson should be kicking up a stink now. The government is getting very arrogant because they will control the senate but they are forgetting about responsibilty to the whole nation.
Where is chardoney grown John? All food stuffs, grapes and vegetables and meat are grown in the country and we won't have any water. Not a drop and the drought is tightening and will get worse for the next six months. Prices will rise . . . and all the tax cuts will disappear because food prices will rise and take the tax cuts away.
Taliesin, if I remember correctly, is Norwegian for peace or place of peace? It was the name US architect, Frank Lloyd Wright, gave to his home in the Arizona desert (I think I remember that correctly). The essential things about Iraq is that the invasion was justified on the specious grounds of WMD that never existed (well, not since they were desptroyed in the early 90s after the first Iraqi war), the occupation justified on the basis of spreading democracy, the destruction of civil life justified on ridding Iraq of Baathists, and the escalation of foreign (to Iraq) islamic fascists (only some Muslims are fascists - Bin Laden is one of them) vs US adventurism (supported by our Johnny) is a direct result of all of this.
Democracy will only operate where there is peace. Remove peace and the associated freedoms are eroded and disappear. So, Taliesin's monicker, however spelt, is a bit ironic, given his/her position.
Thank you for your feedback my anonymous & mysterious correspondent.
The facts of the matter are that entire world was horrified & repulsed by the awful, cowardly attack perpetrated against the United States on September 11, 2001, & whilst the hearts of everyone I know went out to the innocent victims & their families, none of us would be ignorant enough to pretend that we could ever truly share their grief & understand their profound sense of loss.
Many people, including me, expressed our sympathy & solidarity with the US via telephone calls, emails & letters to the US Ambassador, your President & directly to friends, acquaintances & colleagues in the US.
When the President of the United States declared America’s ‘war against terror’, the world understood & supported America in its quest to bring the perpetrators to justice: with the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan truly a multilateral undertaking.
Sadly, tragically, 3 1/2 years on, the solidarity that the world felt with the US has evaporated, with the bulk of the world’s population feeling more threatened by the behaviour of the US than the criminal behaviour of the terrorists it set out to bring to justice.
So how did that happen?
It happened because people in your government deliberately decided to trade on the tragedy of 911 to pursue what they believed should be the imperatives of US geo-political interests: to directly control ¼ of the world’s oil reserves & reinforce Israel’s strategic dominance in the region.
People in your government, including your Vice-President & Secretary of Defence, deliberately mislead the American people, claiming, without evidence, that Saddam Hussein was a sponsor of al-Qaeda & was directly involved in the attack on the twin towers.
In an attempt to further justify its planned war of aggression against Iraq, these same people fabricated the existence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.
Let me make it clear to you that I am not an apologist for Saddam Hussein. There is no question that he was an evil & despotic ruler, guilty of perpetrating horrible crimes against his own people, but the unpalatable truth of the matter is that he remained in power, regardless of his crimes, just as long as it suited US interests.
That truth, along with the truth that neither your government nor mine ever gave a tinker’s cuss about Saddam’s crimes against his own people, including the genocide perpetrated against the Kurdish minority in 1988, is clearly evident through their failure to remove him during the course of the 1st gulf war.
Whilst you are obviously ‘free’ to believe what you like, my view is that the current US administration has deliberately misled the American people. The ‘terrorists’ responsible for 911 remain free whilst 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians have been appallingly butchered as surrogates.
I also believe that my country’s government was complicit in that deceit & whilst you might like to see me ‘detained’ for daring to speak my views, in my country at least I am still free to do so.
If you & your government would ‘detain’ everyone who dares to speak-out against its criminal behaviour, then your notions of ‘freedom & democracy’ are peculiar indeed.
As long as you & your government are prepared to ‘detain’ people, whilst denying them the protections of international law & access to due process, then you’re your nation is betraying its own democratic principles & values.
And if you & your government are prepared to torture detainees, secretly or otherwise, then you have become worse than the terrorists you allegedly despise.
Hi John...
staying focused ...
Hi Gus, yes, you're right - if you look at today's SMH letters, the focus is entirely on the flinging of "chardonnay insults", whilst the real issue has disappeared from view.
There is no debate, only background noise.
No offence to Margo but I notice that the same thing happens on Webdiary, where a couple of bloggers usually wind-up dominating the space with traded insults, which inevitably have nothing to do with the issue.
The only reason I persevere with the letters page is to access a wider audience &to try& to provoke debate, although I was chuffed to receive half a dozen calls offering positive support for the views expressed in my original letter.
Back to the chardonay ...
Detainees? Illegal torture?
Well here we go, another big mouth screaming about the illegal entry into a country that is known for their savagery and criminal acts against humanity.
Funny Johnboy, not once did I see you mention the attack helicopters that swooped down on defenseless Kurdish tribes, in an attempt to eradicate them off the face of the Earth, because they were nomads.
Not once did I see you mention that Saddam was given an opportunity to let U.N. inspectors do their job.
However, what I did hear, was garbage. Detainees being tortured? I work three jobs, and go to school, in an attempt to place three square meals on my table every day, and a roof over my head, plus the increasing rate of my taxes to pay for this war. While these "detainees" get all of that for free. What did they do to deserve such kindness from us?
Well lets see, they headed up operations for car bombings, they helped to kidnap engineers, that are helping with the rebuilding of their country, and oh yes, lets not forget some even helped the terrorist network known as Al Quaida.
See Johnnyboy, what upsets me the most is that you honestly believe this crap you are shoveling down peoples throats, and then you have the audacity to bother your Prime Minister with these pack of half truths.
Let's get something straight li'l buddy, you say that you were not attacked, and this is an unwarranted war, but to me its been a long time coming. If you don't want to support your Prime Minister then move to . . . might I suggest Bali, in Indonesia. That way you can cry about the mediocrities presented in your plight that you call life, in utter despair.
You want to talk about my country...land of the free, home of the brave, and you dare dishonor the soldiers who gave their life, over nothing? I'd like to "detain" you sir. Funny thing, the Geneva Convention was formed so that mistreatment of prisoners is prohibited, yet in every war, American soldiers have been beaten savagely, and now thier heads are getting cut off, and yet there is always some joker out there who wants to bring to light the fact we cut a couple dogs loose on some terrorists. Don't think you can't be attacked JohnBoy, don't for one minute think it can't happen to you. I thought the same way until 9/11 wiped out my brother, and his two kids.
Re: Detainees? Torture?
TalieSin (or whatever your name is), how dare you hide behind a pen name, insinuate you are an American and talk about how you would like to "detain" an Australian citizen who has had the courage to speak out against the new "Butcher of Baghdad" George W Bush and his lap dogs Howard and Blair.
Perhaps you would like to "detain" me as well? No problem. My real name is printed at the bottom of this post. I'll be looking forward to meeting you.
Hey John
Thanks for your continuing, consistently excellent coverage of the use of torture by our allies & us.
I wanted to also strongly agree with your observation that discussions on important issues all too often devolve into an either low or high-brow slanging match based on fundamentals and absolutes.
In my view & experience, this is a major tactic of neo-conservatives in particular. They know that they distract us mightily from in-depth discussion and proative thinking by successfully engaging us in "black = white" debates. As they live to argue, they never tire, and their mission is accomplished.
Which is why the dreg above is not even worth responding to. I would love to see bloggers here set an example by ignoring such deliberately provocative and unproductive comments, and instead get on with the real discussion.
whomever you are T@lieSin
Angry comments
TalieSin, It sounds to me like you've got some grief and anger issues you need to deal with. We are a country which believes in freedom of speech and your tirade is freely spoken (many on this forum may be surprised you actually got posted) but your comments indicate the forum deny John his freedom of expression.
We are both free countries and therefore need to set examples for the rest of the world which experience torture. Revenge should never be tolerated and nobody has ever said that all Americans are like those that were involved in the Iraqi prisoner scandal. Most people actually understand that the Bush government's biggest critics are the people of the US.
The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment. Robert M. Hutchins
Illegal torture? Detainees?
Detainees? Illegal torture?
YES THEY ARE
Well here we go, another big mouth screaming about the illegal entry into a country that is known for their savagery and criminal acts against humanity.
WHAT'S MORE SAVAGE: CUTTING SOMEONE'S HEAD OR BOMBING AN ENTIRE VILLAGE FROM 30,000 FEET?
Funny Johnboy, not once did I see you mention the attack helicopters that swooped down on defenseless Kurdish tribes, in an attempt to eradicate them off the face of the Earth, because they were nomads.
THE CIA INCITED THEM TO REVOLT AGAINST SADDAM THEN THE CIA DROPPED THEM LIKE WET SOX...
Not once did I see you mention that Saddam was given an opportunity to let U.N. inspectors do their job.
TO THE CONTRARY SADDAM EVENTUALLY LET THE INSPECTORS ANYWHERE THEY WANTED (after a bit of arm twisting sure) AND PRODUCED A 10,000 PAGES DOCUMENT SHOWING WHERE AND WHEN THE WEAPONS (WMD) HAD BEEN DESTROYED AS WELL AS THE SUPPLIERS WHICH THE US DELETE FROM THE DOCUMENT BEFORE HANDING IT OVER THO THE UN
However, what I did hear, was garbage. Detainees being tortured? I work three jobs, and go to school, in an attempt to place three square meals on my table every day, and a roof over my head, plus the increasing rate of my taxes to pay for this war. While these "detainees" get all of that for free. What did they do to deserve such kindness from us?
MANY DETAINEES ARE ORDINARY INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO WHERE AT"THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME"... SHOULD THEY BE RELEASED THEY WON'T LOVE THE US, WOULD THEY?
Well lets see, they headed up operations for car bombings, they helped to kidnap engineers, that are helping with the rebuilding of their country, and oh yes, lets not forget some even helped the terrorist network known as Al Quaida.
IRAQ WAS DESTROYED BY US BOMBS AFTER 10 YEARS OF SANCTIONS
See Johnnyboy, what upsets me the most is that you honestly believe this crap you are shoveling down peoples throats, and then you have the audacity to bother your Prime Minister with these pack of half truths.
THE LIES ABOUT THE WMDS WERE FULL ON PORKIES
Let's get something straight li'l buddy, you say that you were not attacked, and this is an unwarranted war, but to me its been a long time coming. If you don't want to support your Prime Minister then move to . . . might I suggest Bali, in Indonesia. That way you can cry about the mediocrities presented in your plight that you call life, in utter despair.
WE HAVE BEEN INVITED TO COME AND WORK IN THE US...
You want to talk about my country...land of the free, home of the brave, and you dare dishonor the soldiers who gave their life, over nothing? I'd like to "detain" you sir. Funny thing, the Geneva Convention was formed so that mistreatment of prisoners is prohibited, yet in every war, American soldiers have been beaten savagely, and now their heads are getting cut off, and yet there is always some joker out there who wants to bring to light the fact we cut a couple dogs loose on some terrorists.
1600 US SOLDIERS DEAD.... 100,000 IRAQI DEAD KILLED BY US SOLDIERS.... (INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN)
Don't think you can't be attacked JohnBoy, don't for one minute think it can't happen to you. I thought the same way until 9/11 wiped out my brother, and his two kids.
SADDAM HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11...
Liquidity is water
John, you are in Sydney drinking chardonay and I hear that Warragamba is a couple of clicks above 40 percent full, damn it. That John, means it is 60percent empty and at 61percent empty water restrictions begin in Sydney. There are more than 4.5million people in the suburban area of Sydney, and up herein Qld they are promulgating that there is now 4 million people in the whole state of Queensland.
On the 7.30 Report Kerry O'Brien last night got stuck into National Party leader John Anderson for not voicing more aid for water in the country.
This nation is going merrily along and the Budget was set by Peter Costello to get him to be PM but there are a lot of things very wrong with the Budget. The Gold Coast is running out of water and Brisbane also is not too flash with water. When the Gold Coast begins to run out it will syphon it off from Brisbane.
Water and the lack of it is a bit of a sleeper, and later in the year if Telstra is sold, the country, I mean the people who don't live in the cities will be in very big trouble. When Telstra is sold the Libs will look at the investments where to put that available money. The people who control the cities, the Liberals will invest all that money in shares in the cities for the cities. John Anderson should be kicking up a stink now. The government is getting very arrogant because they will control the senate but they are forgetting about responsibilty to the whole nation.
Where is chardoney grown John? All food stuffs, grapes and vegetables and meat are grown in the country and we won't have any water. Not a drop and the drought is tightening and will get worse for the next six months. Prices will rise . . . and all the tax cuts will disappear because food prices will rise and take the tax cuts away.
Taliesin is Peace
Taliesin, if I remember correctly, is Norwegian for peace or place of peace? It was the name US architect, Frank Lloyd Wright, gave to his home in the Arizona desert (I think I remember that correctly). The essential things about Iraq is that the invasion was justified on the specious grounds of WMD that never existed (well, not since they were desptroyed in the early 90s after the first Iraqi war), the occupation justified on the basis of spreading democracy, the destruction of civil life justified on ridding Iraq of Baathists, and the escalation of foreign (to Iraq) islamic fascists (only some Muslims are fascists - Bin Laden is one of them) vs US adventurism (supported by our Johnny) is a direct result of all of this.
Democracy will only operate where there is peace. Remove peace and the associated freedoms are eroded and disappear. So, Taliesin's monicker, however spelt, is a bit ironic, given his/her position.
Sometimes I like to ramble!
to my anonymous & mysterious correspondent
Thank you for your feedback my anonymous & mysterious correspondent.
The facts of the matter are that entire world was horrified & repulsed by the awful, cowardly attack perpetrated against the United States on September 11, 2001, & whilst the hearts of everyone I know went out to the innocent victims & their families, none of us would be ignorant enough to pretend that we could ever truly share their grief & understand their profound sense of loss.
Many people, including me, expressed our sympathy & solidarity with the US via telephone calls, emails & letters to the US Ambassador, your President & directly to friends, acquaintances & colleagues in the US.
When the President of the United States declared America’s ‘war against terror’, the world understood & supported America in its quest to bring the perpetrators to justice: with the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan truly a multilateral undertaking.
Sadly, tragically, 3 1/2 years on, the solidarity that the world felt with the US has evaporated, with the bulk of the world’s population feeling more threatened by the behaviour of the US than the criminal behaviour of the terrorists it set out to bring to justice.
So how did that happen?
It happened because people in your government deliberately decided to trade on the tragedy of 911 to pursue what they believed should be the imperatives of US geo-political interests: to directly control ¼ of the world’s oil reserves & reinforce Israel’s strategic dominance in the region.
People in your government, including your Vice-President & Secretary of Defence, deliberately mislead the American people, claiming, without evidence, that Saddam Hussein was a sponsor of al-Qaeda & was directly involved in the attack on the twin towers.
In an attempt to further justify its planned war of aggression against Iraq, these same people fabricated the existence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.
Let me make it clear to you that I am not an apologist for Saddam Hussein. There is no question that he was an evil & despotic ruler, guilty of perpetrating horrible crimes against his own people, but the unpalatable truth of the matter is that he remained in power, regardless of his crimes, just as long as it suited US interests.
That truth, along with the truth that neither your government nor mine ever gave a tinker’s cuss about Saddam’s crimes against his own people, including the genocide perpetrated against the Kurdish minority in 1988, is clearly evident through their failure to remove him during the course of the 1st gulf war.
Whilst you are obviously ‘free’ to believe what you like, my view is that the current US administration has deliberately misled the American people. The ‘terrorists’ responsible for 911 remain free whilst 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians have been appallingly butchered as surrogates.
I also believe that my country’s government was complicit in that deceit & whilst you might like to see me ‘detained’ for daring to speak my views, in my country at least I am still free to do so.
If you & your government would ‘detain’ everyone who dares to speak-out against its criminal behaviour, then your notions of ‘freedom & democracy’ are peculiar indeed.
As long as you & your government are prepared to ‘detain’ people, whilst denying them the protections of international law & access to due process, then you’re your nation is betraying its own democratic principles & values.
And if you & your government are prepared to torture detainees, secretly or otherwise, then you have become worse than the terrorists you allegedly despise.
Any dishonour, by choice, is therefore yours.