Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro and Spanish journalist Ignacio Ramonet, during the latter’s meeting with the President at the Miraflores Palace in Caracas. 

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, first of all, allow me to wish you a Happy New Year.

The President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Nicolás Maduro: Thank you.

Ignacio Ramonet: And, on the other hand, I would like to thank you for agreeing to give this interview, which is interview number 10, since we began these meetings at the beginning of the year, which have become a classic. Last week, an article appeared in France, for example in a weekly newspaper, with an article against me and in particular focused on the fact that I am the journalist who interviews you every first of the year.

Nicolás Maduro: Are these people afraid of the interview?

Ignacio Ramonet: Yes, because it is a very frank conversation, isn’t it?

Nicolás Maduro: To tell the truths that they hide. You can also watch these ten interviews, ten years in a row, and compare what we said about the past year and the forecasts for the coming year.

Ignacio Ramonet: What has also been done is that each time, these interviews allow us to take stock of the past year and open up perspectives for the new year.

Nicolás Maduro: and whoever disagrees, well, let them open the debate! We open a debate. We love the debate, the debate of ideas, the battle of truth against so much manipulation, and that is why I thank you for this window of opportunity, because when we started these interviews, they were published in writing. It was another century, another world.

Ignacio Ramonet: It was another world.

Nicolas Maduro: Today, these interviews are disseminated through what are called social networks and platforms.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, the interview will be divided, as every year, into four parts. We will talk about domestic policy, which has many important issues, the economy, which is a fundamental issue. We will talk about technology and society, precisely because of what you just said, social networks. And we will end with international policy.

Nicolas Maduro: Yes.

Ignacio Ramonet: So I wanted to start with the following question, which concerns the issue of democracy in Venezuela. In Venezuela, the year 2024, which has just ended, has been a very electoral year. There were the presidential elections of July 28, the referendum on Guyana Esequiba, the popular consultation of August 25 on participatory budgets of the municipalities, the election of justices of the peace and, this year, the local and regional elections, a whole series of elections, including parliamentary elections. In other words, since the beginning of the Bolivarian Revolution 25 years ago, Venezuela has been characterized by great electoral intensity. But recently, you said that you were thinking about a possible constitutional reform to inject more democracy into Venezuela. I think there is already enough democracy, what should be added to Venezuelan democracy?

Nicolás Maduro: Well, there are several questions. First of all, the assessment that we draw, now that the Constitution celebrated its 25th anniversary on December 15, is very auspicious, very positive, because despite so many conspiracies, so many coup attempts, the coup that we managed to overthrow in April 2002, the economic war in its different phases, the psychological and cognitive war, the national and international political war, we can resume from the main proposal of the Constituent Assembly of 1999, which is the construction of a participatory and protagonistic democracy (in Venezuela this word refers to the right of the people to determine the course of politics, Ed.). At that time, in the late 1990s, Commander Chávez began to promote the idea of ​​overcoming the old, exhausted party democracy, representative democracy. Because while calling itself democratic, it severely limited sovereignty, the power of the people. And we can say that the ideas and proposals of 25 years ago have been fully and completely implemented.

We have had 31 constitutional elections, 31 elections, periodic, permanent, with an impeccable calendar, presidential elections, when it was necessary despite all the wars, the blockades, there have never been excuses to postpone a presidential election, or elections for governorships and legislative councils, which are the power of the State, or elections for city halls and municipal councils, the municipal power. We have held seven referendums, including the referendum in the territory of Guyana Esequiba, to resolve essential and fundamental issues. We must remember a very important referendum, in 2007, for a constitutional reform that we lost by 20,000 votes, and we immediately recognized the result. And let us remember the referendum of February 2009 to modify the Constitution, because in Venezuela, not a comma, not a period, not a word of the Constitution can be modified without a referendum. It is a constitutional mandate and a constitutional right of the people. Then, in 2006-2007, Commander Chávez began the construction of a direct popular democracy, with the creation of the first communal councils, then the development of the concept of commune, which is the aggregation of communal councils, and the transfer of the power of self-management to the neighbors.

We have forcefully taken up the idea of ​​direct democracy, neighborhood democracy and community democracy. In this case, the construction of what our people call a new communal state, a new modern state, in the idea of ​​the Bolivarian socialist modernity of the 21st century, and not in the idea of ​​the failed modernity of the Western world, nor of postmodernity, which was a critique of modernity. In this case, we are trying to build a new concept, based on the 1999 Constitution, and the results have been, and are, extraordinary. This year, in 2024, we have held three direct consultations with the communities. Two consultations for projects, for the execution of budgets, for community projects, decided, defined, planned, voted on and approved by a popular, direct, secret, broad and majority vote. This meant approving thousands, thousands of neighborhood projects, to solve often acute problems that the bureaucracy of the old state does not address, does not solve. I witnessed, in a region called Guatire, Araira, here in the state of Miranda, the development of a project, a retaining wall for a main access road to a productive area, on the route of the mandarin producers. And how the population asked the mayor, for years, to build a retaining wall, because the entire access road was going to collapse, and he never gave them an answer. And we, and the community, in one of the consultations, the first one, approved the project, the direct resource was reduced, something like 10 thousand dollars, but the community, in 4 months, built the wall but in an incredible way, complete, safe, and they had enough money left to recover a health center and a school, which demonstrates that direct democracy, with the participation, the omnipresent eye of the people, democracy of proximity, is infinitely superior, much more effective than the old worn-out bourgeois State that we still have, which is like a strange coexistence between the old State that does not finish solving local problems, and the telluric force of a new State that is emerging from the base. We also had a very beautiful experience at the end of the year, on December 15, because the National Assembly approved the organic law on communal justice of the peace, and 15,000 justices of the peace were elected in Venezuela by direct popular vote, 15,000 principal justices of the peace and 15,000 substitute justices of the peace from the territory, from the neighbors. It is not said in the world, because the world is interested in repeating that in Venezuela there is a dictatorship, that there is no democracy, and that the only democracy that exists is their democracy, the democracy of the North, of the West, of this collective empire, degraded, decomposed, in the final phase of decadence, and it is not said that here, in the South, in the global South, in South America, there is a beautiful experience that is being born of popular democracy, direct democracy, democracy of the neighbors. So we have lived through a great period to prove that it is possible to build another way of doing politics, that it is possible, necessary and urgent for humanity to consider new models. And from there, from this debate, a very strong proposal was born, which was very well received by the whole of Venezuelan society, namely that from January 2025, we should move towards a constitutional reform that democratizes the whole State, that democratizes the whole of society and that moves towards a process of strengthening a new way of doing politics, a new democracy. This is the direction we must go in, and also with a method based on dialogue and inclusion.

I am putting together a special team of experts, advisers, consultants, I have an eye on the forms of consultation of the people's power that we are constantly applying, as well as a group of international advisers who have offered to support us, and very soon, perhaps in the coming days…

Ignacio Ramonet: Translate this into law, to some extent?

Nicolas Maduro: Yes, because the constitutional reform, to be implemented, must first be a project. The reform must go to the National Assembly, the legislative branch of Venezuela, the Parliament, the only one that exists in Venezuela, the Parliament elected by the people in 2020, once the Parliament approves a project, that project must go to the streets, to the people, to the debate, to the referendum, and the one who has the last word in Venezuela to approve a reform, to change the Constitution, is popular sovereignty, it is direct democracy, it is the people.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, the whole world is currently waiting for two inaugurations that will take place in the coming days. On the one hand, that of the elected president of the United States, Donald Trump, in Washington, which will take place on January 20, and yours, which will take place in a few days, on January 10. The question is how do you explain that for so many international observers there is the same interest between your inauguration and the one that is taking place in the world's leading power with a change of leadership, which in this case is not taking place here since you have been re-elected... What is so special about Venezuela that it is at the center of global attention?

Nicolás Maduro: Because there is a battle for control and domination of Venezuela. Venezuela was the center of anti-colonialist and independence struggles exactly 200 years ago. We are here accompanied by the sword, the liberating sword of Carabobo, with which the liberator Simón Bolívar fought the victorious battle of June 24, 1821, that drove the Spanish imperial army from the lands of what is now Venezuela. The sword that the people of Lima, the poor people of Lima, the indigenous people, the artisans gave him, to signify that Bolívar was their liberator, their savior. They are two swords of great symbolic importance in our history, of great importance. We also have here a dagger that belonged to the great marshal of Ayacucho, the victor of Ayacucho 200 years ago, who finally drove the imperial armies from Europe, from Spain, from this territory, from South America. All these symbols, like the pistol of the liberator Antonio José de Sucre, strongly mark the struggles that we are waging today.

Ignacio Ramonet: It must be said, Mr. President, that we are in the presidential office.

Nicolás Maduro: Yes, this is office number one in the Miraflores Palace, which is the people's house. And these are precisely the symbols that accompany us daily, permanently. And it is a permanent reminder, Ramonet, of where we come from, what our project is, where all our strength and energy for the 21st century comes from.

So, listen, the empire believed that in 2024 it could carry out a definitive coup in Venezuela, it played a double game. On the one hand, what I called the diplomacy of deception, which is very practiced by empires and the US empire in the world, with its different modalities, the diplomacy of deception with false offers to try after gaining space, to stab you in the back; at other times, they also apply the diplomacy of deception based on blackmail, on the threat of invasion, of economic wars.

We know all these ways of acting of the US empire and its allies. They thought that 2024 was the decisive year and they applied the diplomacy of deception, based on the negotiations that we had with the outgoing government, Joe Biden, and that they did not respect in any way.

Ignacio Ramonet: What was called the Barbados negotiations, right?

Nicolás Maduro: And Qatar.

Ignacio Ramonet: And Qatar.

Nicolás Maduro: Yes. And the signing of the documents. There you have the documents that they have not respected in a vulgar and shameless way. And underneath, they have favored, financed, supported and promoted the resurgence of a fascist hotbed of the extreme right that would control a good part of the Venezuelan opposition, and that would lead it back to a great conspiracy, the Trojan horse that they need to destroy the countries. And they believed, once again, as they did in the coup of 2002, underestimating us, underestimating the Venezuelan people, that they had built the perfect plan. But, small detail, they did not count on the immense power of the historical bloc of the Bolivarian revolution. They did not count on the fact that in Venezuela there is a powerful historical bloc and that there is a perfect fusion between popular power, military power and police power. This is what we call the union and the popular, civic-military-police fusion, taking up Gramsci’s concept, developed by Chávez, of the Bolivarian Revolution.

So this year we have foiled the imperialist plan to destroy the Bolivarian Revolution. But they maintain their obsessive determination to destabilize Venezuela. So they are trying to turn our election, just as they turned the presidential elections of July 28, into a global issue, and now with social networks even more, with the manipulation of social networks. How many elections have there been in 2024 in the world? Hundreds of elections.

Ignacio Ramonet: Dozens at least, it is one of the most electoral years in history.

Nicolás Maduro: But it seems that there have only been two elections, the one on July 28 in Venezuela…

Ignacio Ramonet: And in the United States.

Nicolás Maduro: And in the United States in November. They made it a global election. Now they want January 10 to be a global takeover. They are trying to do what they have not succeeded in doing and will not succeed in doing, which is to destabilize our homeland, destabilize our democracy, derail Venezuela and try to drag it down the path of chaos, division, confrontation and, with chaos, division, violence, call for foreign military intervention, which is the ultimate dream of this crazy idea of ​​Venezuelan fascism, of the extreme right, to try to apply a method of maximum pressure, violence and destruction of the revolutionary forces of Chavismo.

Venezuela is simply at peace, calm, quiet and sure of its destiny, sure of its path. And in the same way that we have been able to dismantle the internal conspiracies, the internal fascist Trojan horses, the external pressures, the conspiracies, the mercenaries, the terrorists, in these 25 years we have already acquired the experience and the capacity to guarantee to the Venezuelan people and to the peoples of the world who support us, who love us, who love the Venezuelan people, that Venezuela will continue on the path of independence, peace and revolution. Be sure of that.

Ignacio Ramonet: As you say, Mr. President, the media campaign against Venezuela has been going on for 25 years and we have seen how this campaign has intensified since your electoral victory on July 28. In particular, the international conservative media have shamelessly changed the story of what happened the day after the elections, on July 29. That is to say, when organized armed groups attacked a number of official institutions and caused about thirty deaths. The version that was given in the international media, which spread on social networks, is that these victims were caused by the authorities. So it is a bit of a topsy-turvy world, as Eduardo Galeano said. You reacted against these lies and you launched, you relaunched not only the revolutionary movement, notably with the historic bloc, but also a major antifascist offensive. You organized, a series of antifascist congresses, antifascist movements, were organized in Caracas. International antifascism has now gathered in Caracas to support the Bolivarian revolution.

And I wanted to ask you, on the one hand, your opinion on this new international campaign, although you just said it to some extent, and what is your assessment of these antifascist congresses that have been held in Caracas in recent months.

Nicolás Maduro: The antifascist congresses in Venezuela have shown the immense support we have in all the world movements, anticolonialist, antifascist, progressive, leftist, revolutionary, in all the humanist movements. Here in Venezuela, people have come together, from the immense diversity of civilizations, from all continents, from all countries, who are looking for what? An alternative, an alternative so that the unipolar world does not return, so that hegemonism ends, and also to tell the owners, the private companies, the owners of the social networks, the portals and the major media of the world, that another world is possible.

And we, in Venezuela, support this other world, the real world, first of all.

Part One. See continuation below.)

ontinuation and end of this exclusive interview with President Maduro by Ignacio Ramonet.

Thanks to Thierry Deronne for the translation.

MADURO: Secondly, I have noted the immense support of the Venezuelan people for the antifascist congresses. I have witnessed several experiences where, let’s say, visitors, delegates of social movements, intellectuals, politicians from all over the world, from Asia, Africa, Europe, the United States, Latin America and the Caribbean, have gone to visit communities in different states of the country, they have been able to walk the streets of the different cities and they have been able to feel in the streets the desire of the Venezuelan people for tranquility, stability, peace, respect, that no one interferes in the internal affairs of Venezuela, that the empires leave Venezuela alone, that it is the homeland of Bolívar.

Thirdly, I can tell you that in Venezuela the future of the progressive movements of the world, of the revolutionary movements of the world, is being drawn, and I am convinced that this message, this awareness and this alert are in the minds of millions of men and women from all continents, all countries, all religions, all cultures, because they know that Venezuela has a very powerful voice to denounce global crimes, a very powerful voice to denounce the decadence of the Western world, to make proposals that allow the rapprochement of peoples, of civilizations, in terms of new models of development, more egalitarian, that advocate greater social happiness, as the liberator Simón Bolívar proposed. So there are many people watching us. Just as there is manipulation of social networks, mercenaries who write articles here, there, on portals, in the media, be sure, because I see it and we have seen it, there is also an immense operation to defend the truth of our country.

And people know what the conspiracy meant to use the elections of July 28 to fill the country with violence, to organize a coup d'état with foreign intervention. People are aware of the immense value of the efforts made by the Venezuelan people to restore peace and tranquility in 48 hours, to restore justice.

The Venezuelan justice bodies, the Public Ministry, the judicial system, have carried out a thorough and professional investigation, in accordance with national legislation and international standards, to identify those responsible for the acts of violence and hate crimes that have been committed. All the people killed in the violent acts of the fascist outbreak of July 29 and 30 were victims of these groups called "comanditos", these groups of paid criminals, who went out into the streets to burn, to break, because they wanted, and this is not the first time, to kill people, they wanted with this "guarimba" version 2024, to provoke a commotion of such magnitude that it would give the gringos and their right-wing allies the justification to try to introduce military force into Venezuela, and to transform Venezuela into a combat zone, a conflict zone. But there is a force, a consciousness, a capacity, and in 48 hours, peace has been constitutionally restored, justice has been done, justice will continue to be done, and I can tell you with absolute conviction that if you go to the streets of any community, anywhere in the country, and you ask Venezuelans: do you want the guarimba to return? do you want violence to return? do you want hate crimes, attacks, intolerance to return?, more than 90% of the people of this country will answer you with one voice: we do not want intolerance, we do not want hatred, we do not want division, we do not want violence. We are on the path to peace and I can assure you that the man who is here, whom you know very well, Nicolás Maduro Moros, re-elected president, is the greatest guarantee, along with our people, of the peace, stability and independence of Venezuela.

The antifascist congresses will continue in a few days, from January 7 to 12, there will be a great world congress of antifascist youth. And there will be the second chapter of the Antifascist Congress of Social and Political Movements. So we are waiting for the arrival, between July 7 and 12, of more than 2,000 leaders of social and political movements from all continents, who will come to Venezuela to celebrate the victories of antifascism. Because it is in Venezuela that the future of the fight against this macabre model that is trying to reappear is being decided.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, we are going to talk about the economy, which is an extremely important topic. A few days ago, the executive vice president, Delcy Rodríguez, announced that you had decided to change the name of the Ministry of Popular Power for Oil, which will now be called the Ministry of Popular Power for Hydrocarbons. And Delcy Rodríguez said that this change represented a strategic change in the way of approaching the energy issue.

I would like you to explain to us what this strategic change consists of.

Nicolás Maduro: We defined 18 engines in 2016. Then came all the criminal sanctions, all the economic, commercial and financial persecutions against Venezuela. And we have very patiently carried out the development of the 18 engines, right? One of these engines is the hydrocarbon engine. Seen as a whole, Venezuela is an energy power. We have the largest oil reserves on planet Earth. We have the fourth largest gas reserves. We have a powerful petrochemical industry. So we consider the hydrocarbon engine as a very important engine for its development. But we intend to no longer depend on the hydrocarbon engine, or to break the dependence on it. We want it to be a powerful engine that supports the development of the country's economy. A powerful lever, but without falling back into dependency, because we have already made the decision to build a productive economy that is based on many other sources than oil. And I think we have made good progress.

Ignacio Ramonet: A more diversified economy.

Nicolás Maduro: Yes. With various properties or, let's say, various capacities for potential development to guarantee and satisfy national needs and develop the export and import substitution vocation that the country must have.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, for a few years now, Venezuela has been experiencing what analysts call an economic miracle. According to figures from independent and reliable international organizations, Venezuela has grown by 12% in 2022. Last year, the year before, growth was 5%. And probably, when the figures are published, the growth for the year that has just ended will be 6%. And all this in a country under siege, a country subjected to dozens of criminal unilateral coercive measures. Analysts wonder how you do it, what is your recipe?

Nicolas Maduro: First of all, you have to have a plan. I have it here, you see, the summary. It is my working document. It is my document. I am not going to show it to you. Here, we are constantly following the economic strategy. The first thing was to establish in 2016, very clearly, the true drivers of national development. The second was to establish the need to build macroeconomic balances in line with a productive effort. I always quote Artigas, the great liberator of the eastern strip of Uruguay, when I say that we expect nothing except from ourselves. Look, I have here the development strategy for each sector of the national economy. We have set great objectives. We confirm them here. A fundamental objective was to produce food. I reorganized the Gran Misión Agrovenezuela, created by Comandante Chávez, and we reorganized it by talking with the national peasant movement, and we took practical measures that freed the productive forces of the countryside. Venezuela started from an 80% dependence on foreign food products. We had been buying all our food abroad for 120 years. Why? Because of the oil checkbook. We went from 80% shortages in the street to a 100% supply of agroecological products, organic products, looking for answers with the rural production movement, with the peasant movement, with the rural business community.

The development of the countryside, of the land, of food is fundamental. And we have recovered the capacity of the Venezuelan industry, which reached 8%. Venezuela has an important industry in all sectors, with a good level. Commander Chávez made a good industrial investment in the country through credit systems, etc. The Venezuelan industrial system reached 8%. This year, overall, we are approaching 45%.

Next year, I proposed to the Vice President, to the Director of Economy, Delcy Rodríguez, that we reach 70% to complete the import substitution cycle, which is a necessary cycle to break the negative cycle of imports, of things that we can produce here; to produce everything here and strengthen the new cycle of export vocation that allows convertible currencies to enter, to strengthen the exchange rate system of Venezuela, to have money for many other things.

Here I have the plan. All I am going to do… I have already defined the 7 transformations. First of all, the great economic transformation of Venezuela. Continue to advance in the development of a strong economy. We have developed a strong domestic market. At present, we have recorded an 81% growth in domestic trade in the last quarter. This is what I described as an overheating of domestic consumption, which demonstrates the great purchasing and consumption capacity of the population and shows a high level of supply through domestic production, but also through imports. So we have to find a balance so as not to import too much and to ensure that everything is produced here, this is a fundamental element.

So we have good economic figures, you were talking about the year 2022.

Ignacio Ramonet: A growth of 12%.

Nicolás Maduro: I will correct you, if you allow me.

Ignacio Ramonet: Yes, please.

Nicolás Maduro: Growth was 15% in 2022, it was the first year of growth after the missiles, after the criminal economic sanctions, the missiles fell, we endured, we resisted and the first year of growth of the real economy was in 2022, 15%. In 2023 we had 5. 5%. And in 2024, according to all the scientific, statistical and technical data, the growth of the gross domestic product will exceed 9%, with a very high level of growth of the real economy and the hydrocarbon economy, which we are recovering, Ramonet, thanks to our own investments, our own technology and the immense effort, wisdom, preparation and training of the Venezuelan working class in the hydrocarbon sector, thanks to their knowledge; because you must know that we are still suffering from the economic persecution against our oil industry, our gas industry. So there are good elements: in 2024 we will have the lowest inflation in the last 20 years; in 2024 we will have completed a cycle of 14 quarters of growth. So it is time to commit for six years, as we are going to do, to building an autonomous and productive economic model that supplies the country, that develops its export vocation and that generates wealth to recover all the social and labor rights of our working class and our people.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, following on from what you just said, now that the economic situation is improving considerably, what good measures can you announce during this holiday season to improve the daily lives of Venezuelans in 2025?

Nicolás Maduro: Well, here is the plan. First of all, to consolidate the country's food self-sufficiency, which is vital, and its export vocation. We are making significant investments in the Venezuelan countryside to achieve this goal. Second, consolidating the stability of the Venezuelan exchange rate system and the fight against inflation. This is essential to ensure the best conditions for the country's economic and social development. This is a set of well-articulated and activated elements. Continuing to guarantee investments and our own technology with our allies in the world, stabilizing the electricity service and continuing to stabilize fuels for domestic consumption, the recovery of the entire Venezuelan refining system, are fundamental elements of the plan. On the social level, in 2023 I created the indexation formula for the full income of workers. In 2024, we deepened it and pushed it beyond what we could do, because income depends on the country's income; I can tell you that we have barely recovered 10% of the country's income and with that we must invest and recover everything. But This year 2025, we will advance in strengthening the concept of indexation and recovery of real income in order to grow in line with the growth of the generation of national wealth. In addition, the plan to complete, in 2025, the recovery of 100% of the country's health facilities, with a total guarantee of operation and technology, we have advanced with the community military brigades ("Bricomiles"), which has been a miracle; and this year 2025, we will recover 100% of the country's schools and high schools thanks to this wonderful formula, the Bricomiles.

We are working in all directions, which is very important to me, and among the priorities for 2025 we are going to hold six consultations to provide resources directly to the communities, four of these consultations for general community projects, one of these consultations, the fifth, for specific projects for young people; and another for projects for cultural workers, and for everything that has to do with the great cultural mission, the Gran Misión Viva Venezuela Mi Patria Querida ("Long Live Venezuela, My Beloved Homeland").

For the application of the new municipal budget, a modality that people are going to start to know, I have created the Budget Fund for Community Projects, we estimate that it will have the equivalent of an additional 600 million dollars, it is the national budget given directly to the communities and they themselves decide on their priorities, this is going to have a huge impact on the quality of life in the territory, in the communities.

And we will continue to move forward as in 2024 with the great social missions of the new generation, taking up the original concept of Commander Chávez, of the social missions, and the great missions, designed from a strategic and structural point of view for the sectors that have been most affected by the economic war, by the criminal sanctions of the gringos; The Great Mission Women Venezuela, to continue to advance in the areas of global attention to women in a specific, particular way, in the construction of this immense women's movement in the country; the Great Mission Youth Venezuela, to continue to strengthen the right of young people to study, to work, to culture, to education; the Great Mission Grandfathers and Grandmothers of the Homeland, that is my great mission because I am also a grandfather.

Ignacio Ramonet: Me too [laughs].

Nicolás Maduro: We are the grandparents of the homeland, of the human homeland: the great mission Viva Venezuela Mi Patria Querida, identity, culture, independence of the spirit, of the soul, of the minds; the great mission of equality; and besides that, well, what has to do with housing and habitat, which is the strengthening and unification in a single effort of the great mission Housing Venezuela and the great mission Barrio Nuevo Barrio Tricolor.

Ignacio Ramonet: Very nice, the Barrio Nuevo Barrio Tricolor program.

Nicolás Maduro: It is very beautiful, well prepared and I think that we are going to move forward with new methods that people are asking for, new methods to build housing, to repair housing.

We have very clear priorities, we have the plan, we have the will, we have the support of the people and I believe that the year 2025 and the years that follow will be truly exceptional, wonderful.

Ignacio Ramonet: President, let's move on to the issue of technology and society.

Nicolás Maduro: Absolutely.

Ignacio Ramonet: I know you are very interested in…

Nicolás Maduro: Would you like a cup of tea? Malojillo with lemon and ginger, yes?

Ignacio Ramonet: Yes, with great pleasure.

Nicolás Maduro: Very healthy.

Ignacio Ramonet: Good. Absolutely.

I would like to address a topic that I know interests you a lot, namely the issue of social networks and their influence on our societies. Recently, several governments have taken measures to limit access to social networks. For example, Albania decided to ban TikTok for a year. Or Brazil, which decided to ban access to electronic devices, smartphones, in schools. And Australia decided to ban social networks for all children under 16. So I would like to ask you if, here in Venezuela, your government is considering adopting any of these precautionary measures. Nicolás Maduro: The first thing is that we must understand the global phenomenon of social networks and how private companies are masters of the immense power of communication, which no one has ever had before in the history of humanity. To reach millions, billions of men and women on planet Earth by telephone. And the capacity that they have created, first for commercial economic reasons, to influence minds. A capacity that they have already developed with the marketing that we know. You studied it very well in this book, these capacities, your book from 2007, where you study the capacities of manipulation and influence of radio, the press and television, at the present time.

Ignacio Ramonet: And cinema.

Nicolás Maduro: And cinema, that's right. So we have reached a level never imagined before. And you know, your personal taste, Ramonet, and mine, what you like, if you like kittens or dogs, or if you like this or that soft drink, this or that food, they know all our personal tastes. But it doesn't stop there, this power has been transferred to the level of political power, for the manipulation of electoral processes, for the manipulation of political processes, for the destabilization of countries, in fact the great powers of the world have control over the social networks of their countries, the People's Republic of China, India, Russia, finally, and the United States, which controls the large private companies of multimillionaires who own Facebook, WhatsApp.

Ignacio Ramonet: Instagram.

Nicolás Maduro: Instagram, YouTube and now TikTok. But in the end, TikTok has succumbed to the blackmail and command of the powerful in the United States. To understand all this, I have studied the subject a lot, which is not easy. I have seen people who theoretically understood the thing, but who were themselves victims of the influence of social networks. I started reading this book, which was brought to me by Juan Carlos Monedero at the time of the outbreak of fascist violence in Caracas. I recommend it to you, I recommend these books to everyone. I read them this year and I am reviewing them. Fascismo mainstream, by Carles Senso, Journalism, conspiracies, algorithms and bots at the service of the extreme right. You read this book and you think it was written to describe what happened in Venezuela on July 27, 28, 29 and 30. What the book says was applied in Venezuela for a fascist coup. We know this book by heart, we have experienced it in practice. This book is very valuable.

Here is a book that I also got my hands on, it was given to me, by Jonathan Haidt, an American intellectual that I do not know. It is a very good book, a New York Times bestseller, The Anxious Generation: Why are social networks causing an epidemic of mental illness among our young people? I recommend it.

Ignacio Ramonet: The word of the year this year was “brain rot.”

Nicolás Maduro: That’s what social networks create. They rot emotions, the brain, the ability to react. I have here another book by Marta Peirano, a Spaniard: El enemigo conoce el sistema: Manipulación de ideas, personas e influencias después de la economía de la atención (“The enemy knows the system: Manipulation of ideas, people and influences after the economy of attention”). These are books, you see, written by people, a group of Venezuelans, two officers, a frigate captain, Francisco Felipe López Crespo, and Major José Gregorio Silva Fernández: La guerra de la información en el siglo XXI (The Information War in the 21st Century), an extraordinary, extraordinary book, about this whole phenomenon, by Venezuelan military personnel.

I have a book that fell into my hands very early, by Michel Desmurget: “More Books and Fewer Screens: How to End the Digital Cretins.”

Ignacio Ramonet: Excellent [laughs].

Nicolás Maduro: There is really a lot of research material and we are obliged to understand it.

Ignacio Ramonet: Absolutely.

Nicolás Maduro: Because we are obliged to protect the mental health of our countries. We are especially obliged to protect the mental health of children, girls, young people who are growing up. Because this concept that is called brain rot has already been studied, it seriously affects the cognitive development of the brain functions of our children who are dedicated to screens.

Here in Venezuela, in recent days, before the Constitutional Chamber of the Supreme Court of Justice, which deals with this issue, a group of parents of schools and high schools filed an appeal for legal protection, following the death of two children, a girl and a boy, as a result of one of the viral challenges launched on TikTok. One of those "viral challenges". Recently, another person was burned and his body was destroyed by 70% while completing a viral TikTok challenge live, broadcast live. The Venezuelan State acted through the competent authority Conatel, the National Telecommunications Commission. The Constitutional Chamber convened a series of hearings, a series of judicial events, and issued a first clear and forceful decision to force TikTok to open an office in Venezuela and submit to Venezuelan law. It imposed a fine equivalent to 10 million dollars. And it stated that in the event of non-compliance with this measure, it would take more severe protection measures in the Venezuelan sphere. All I can say is that I put myself at the service of those in Humanity who want to defend the right to mental health, and of the Constitutional Chamber of Venezuela, to do everything that must be done to protect our children, our young people and society as a whole. We have witnessed the fascist outbreak, TikTok has been the main campaign instrument for the fascist outbreak in Venezuela, on July 27, 28, 29 and 30. I can tell you that I was in this same office, I was sitting right here, on July 29 and 30, and I logged into my TikTok account, you saw it, right?

Ignacio Ramonet: Yes, of course.

Nicolás Maduro: I opened it, look, I'm going to open it, so you can see, here I receive a very nice video from Gualberto Ibarreto. Well, here, on the TikTok account, out of 10 videos that I received, 8 promoted violence in the streets, and I'll be told that TikTok didn't know that, right? They use what is called selective censorship, they censor whoever they want, they delete the account, they delete the videos, but when it was violence against Venezuela, they encouraged it, and now they are encouraging these viral challenges, which got them suspended for a year in Albania. I am sure that in 2025 we will see a proliferation of laws and decisions in the world to protect citizens from the infection of anti-values ​​and poor mental health promoted not only by TikTok, but also by many social networks.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, in the same perspective, it is not exactly the theme, but it is growing…

Nicolás Maduro: Here is the tea, cheers!

Ignacio Ramonet: Thank you very much. I would like to know your thoughts, since I see that you work a lot on the subject, on the issue of artificial intelligence, in the perspective of what you said at the end of your speech: what international framework should be defined so as, on the one hand, not to prevent technological and scientific reflection on artificial intelligence, which can contribute a lot to society, but, on the other hand, to limit the harmful effects of artificial intelligence and the threats that it may represent in the future? Many scientists warn us about this.

Nicolás Maduro: Artificial intelligence is undoubtedly a technological advance that surprises humanity. It is said that there are four sources of artificial intelligence in the world, two in the United States, one in China and another in Europe, this is what is known so far, I have studied the subject a lot; here I also have some books to recommend, this one was given to me by Héctor Rodríguez, for my birthday, no, for Christmas, I'm already reading it: "The Age of Artificial Intelligence and Our Human Future", there are several authors, Henry Kissinger wrote before he died, Eric Schmidt and Daniel Huttenlocher. I'm going through it and it explains how artificial intelligence began, what the first supercomputers were, how they were powered. There is also a book that I was given, from the Debate publishing house, called "Artificial la nueva inteligencia y el contorno del humano" ("Artificial, the new intelligence and the contours of the human"), by Mariano Sigman and Santiago Bilinkins.

Ignacio Ramonet: Yes, I know Mariano Sigman well.

Nicolás Maduro: Oh, really?

Ignacio Ramonet: Yes, yes, he is an Argentinian, a very brilliant scientist.

Nicolas Maduro: Yes. And here is a descendant of Japanese, Michio Kaku, on quantum supremacy, the technological revolution that will change everything.

Ignacio Ramonet: Of course, quantum computers can perform billions of operations, while it used to take centuries, today it takes a few seconds.

Nicolas Maduro: This is what is already called artificial superintelligence. And our countries have the obligation to know this technology, to know it thoroughly, it is even combined at the moment, Ramonet, I have said it many times, but you know that a lot of what we say is censored. They combine artificial intelligence, beyond what Big Data was, to know countries and social networks are already run by artificial intelligence, to influence segments of the population.

Ignacio Ramonet: Algorithms are already artificial intelligence.

Nicolas Maduro: And bots.

Ignacio Ramonet: And bots.

Nicolas Maduro: For example, they know your social networks and your whole story, your life. And now, everything you publish, basically, when you receive comments, you already receive them “particularized".

I was saying this recently to a young man, an artist. An artist who was starting to be attacked from Miami, by the far right. Because he spoke beautifully about Venezuela, a famous Venezuelan artist. He spoke beautifully about Venezuela, he came to Venezuela. And he complained about it. I received a thousand messages. And I told him, the messages that came to you, they came to you through bots. But these bots are no longer a room where a few people with phones send messages, no. It is artificial intelligence applied to social networks. They know your history and know where to hit you. So, they threaten your daughter, they threaten a loved one, they say something that could offend you. Then, when you read the messages they send you, it is a cognitive war. It is a psychological massacre that they are trying to do. We are working on artificial intelligence. I recently inaugurated the Humberto Fernández Morán University of Sciences. It offers a four-year degree in artificial intelligence, engineering and artificial intelligence technology. We also offer courses that lead to a degree. We prepare national personnel and also collaborate with Cuba, China, Iran and Russia. Because we have to prepare ourselves. We are in the world of artificial intelligence. And this is what President Xi Jinping says, whom I have read, such an enlightened leader, who speaks of a threat… Let us be careful.

Ignacio Ramonet: It is an opportunity.

Nicolás Maduro: It is also an opportunity. So it is an important issue for the coming years.

Ignacio Ramonet: President, let's move on to the last segment of our conversation: international politics. You have traveled a lot in the Middle East, you know the Arab world well. On the other hand, there is a large Arab community here in Venezuela, especially a community of Syrian origin, which is also large. And I wanted to ask you if you were surprised by what happened on December 8, when the insurgent forces entered Damascus almost without resistance. What is your analysis of that event?

Nicolás Maduro: Well, I think we are still evaluating it. I don’t think that even those who came to power know how they came to power, or why they came to power. We see permanent statements and actions. Let’s hope that the waters calm down and we can discover the truth about what happened. We know that there were very powerful forces that acted with the highest technology. I was in communication with the ambassador during that whole period.

Ignacio Ramonet: In Damascus.

Nicolás Maduro: A great ambassador, a great comrade. He was there until a few days ago, when he left Damascus because of the assassination threats against the diplomats who were still there. I was aware of all the events. I was very struck by the way they took control of social networks and by the fact that the Syrian state had no instrument to prevent them. And how they managed to impose digital terrorism, and to paralyze the whole society. There would be many ways to explain what happened, hopefully in due time. All this offers lessons to those of us who fight for freedom, for independence, for a world for us, the men and women of the South, very important lessons about the consolidation of democratic and deep states, with a people, with a union; the consolidation of well-trained and well-prepared military forces. This brings lessons in terms of social media management.

Syrian society is a complex society. In Venezuela we have a great community, a deep friendship, a great respect. The Syrian people are one of the peoples that has one of the original civilizations, the civilization was born there, between the Tigris and the Euphrates, in this wonderful land, between what is now Iraq, what is now Syria and Egypt. The wonders of the world. And next to all this, the Persian culture, and the sacred lands of Palestine, Lebanon, where our Lord Jesus Christ was. This region has a wonderful history from a human, civilizational, cultural and religious point of view. We aspire for this region to find its own way and consolidate its own model; Sooner than later I am sure that this will happen, and those who today take advantage of Pyrrhic victories, will regret it, because the Syrian people are a people that we know and they are wonderful, and they have a force that is also telluric, deep, millennial, and they will neither be able to subdue nor dominate them, you will see.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, a few weeks ago, in Baku, Azerbaijan, not far from the Middle East, COP-29, the World Climate Summit, ended. I remember that you participated in a climate summit in Copenhagen. One of the conclusions of that summit was that greenhouse gas emissions must be reduced, especially those emitted by carbon-based energy sources, oil, gas and coal. And the question is how Venezuela, which is a large producer of hydrocarbons, as you said earlier, intends to contribute to this collective effect to try to reduce the risks of climate change. Nicolás Maduro: The countries that must contribute first are the countries that consume the most. The United States and European countries have destroyed the climate and, since Copenhagen, they have tried to create a kind of carbon credits, a misleading and deceptive offer, the diplomacy of deception. They proposed creating a carbon bond fund to pay for the pollution they created in the north to countries that do not pollute. Venezuela is not a country that emits a lot of greenhouse gases.

Ignacio Ramonet: On the contrary, the entire Amazon rainforest produces oxygen.

Nicolás Maduro: Yes. Well, humanity must begin to evolve, without a doubt, towards non-polluting forms of energy. We are fully involved in this process. We have a group of scientists at the highest level of the State who are moving our country towards decarbonized forms of energy and towards producing all our electricity. Today we produce 75% of our electricity from hydrological sources and this percentage will increase in the coming years. We are also investing in solar energy, which is called photovoltaic and which is called in a somewhat strange way so that people do not understand. This is an energy caused and produced by the sun, which is an ultra-clean energy.

I believe that humanity is now able to advance by leaps and bounds towards alternative forms of non-polluting energy production. You see, recently our Vice President Delcy Rodríguez was visiting China, she went to several cities, and she was shown a technology, Ramonet, that you would think is incredible.

Ignacio Ramonet: For energy production?

Nicolás Maduro: Yes, and China has advanced, for example, in the field of vehicles that run on direct solar energy. You don't even have to plug them in to make them work. We are already negotiating with one of the Chinese companies that produces electric vehicles to assemble them in Venezuela, to produce electric vehicles with solar energy.

There are wonderful things that technology makes possible. Also very important, as I was explaining to a group of young people recently, is everything related to regenerative agriculture, applied in some places in Africa, to recover totally desert areas, totally arid, in the same way that we recover forest areas, that we defend them, like the Amazon, to the extent that we regenerate already desertified areas, to the extent that we strengthen micro-habitats through a process of green regeneration, I think that we will be able to balance the burden of the immense damage that predatory capitalism has caused to rivers, forests, seas and the entire environment in general over the last 150 years. This is one of our priority lines of action. Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, on November 24, in Uruguay, the candidate Yamandú Orsi of the Frente Amplio won the second round of elections and the left is back in power in that country. With the left in power in Uruguay, there are now 11 countries in Latin America that are governed by left-wing parties. On the other hand, a few days ago, the 20th anniversary of ALBA, the regional integration mechanism founded by Commander Chávez and Fidel Castro, was celebrated. How do you see the issue of regional integration today? Do you think that with more left-wing governments in Latin America than in the past, the issue of regional integration has become more important than it has been for a long time? Nicolás Maduro: I think that this new process that is being established is explained by the premature, rapid and early exhaustion of the alternatives that the right has created, the oligarchies, the social networks, a huge exhaustion. And what alternatives have they created in the face of the exhaustion of certain social-democratic formulas, called progressive? Fascism. What is Milei? It is an extremist response to the failure of a model that has been tried to be applied.

Ignacio Ramonet: Neoliberalism.

Nicolás Maduro: Yes, still within the limits of neoliberalism. And can Milei be an alternative for the Argentine people? Can Milei, with his madness, his histrionics, his extremism, his sadistic insensitivity against the people, his model of destruction of the State, of the Argentine economy, be an alternative for Argentina? No, never. So it is certain that Milei will have to find an alternative to Argentina, with advanced ideas, with ideas of social justice, equality, more democracy, in the Argentine way. This is the case in all countries. And I believe that the long-awaited first spring that the progressive movement had taught us many lessons. I experienced it up close. I was Foreign Minister under Commander Chávez and I saw the first spring grow with him. I saw how ALBA 2004 emerged, how Petrocaribe emerged, how the strengthening of ALBA Petrocaribe helped support the peoples of the continent, how the “Miracle Mission” (free eye care) was born, which served more than 8 million people, how the literacy mission “Yo si puedo” (“yes I can”) came about, how the health missions for all our peoples came about, and how Petrocaribe practically gave stability to an entire continent, 18 states favored by Petrocaribe; and how, from this union between Fidel and Chavez, ALBA, the movement expanded, with the return of the Sandinista Front and Commander Daniel Ortega, the triumph of Evo Morales in Bolivia, the triumph of Correa, the triumph of Lula, the arrival of Nestor Kirchner and Peronism, with – what was a great surprise – the courageous, very courageous, determined, transformative leadership taken by Nestor Kirchner; the emergence and arrival of the Amplio Front, with Tabaré, then with Pepe Mujica, and how this movement was formed throughout South America, in Central America, with the arrival of the Farabundo Martí National Liberation Front in El Salvador, the adhesion of President Mel Zelaya to ALBA. This first spring had a central characteristic: unity in diversity, respect for all directions and national projects. Of course, there are always differences, how can we all be equal in political thought, in doctrine? But under the leadership of Commander Chávez and the leaders of the time, a level of coexistence was reached that allowed the birth of UNASUR. We must remember, I remember it perfectly, it was on April 17, 2007, on Margarita Island, that the concept of UNASUR was born, we must remember that Alan Garcia was there – may he rest in peace – a right-wing president in Peru. We must remember that at that meeting of the birth of UNASUR there was even Alvaro Uribe Velez, paramilitary leader of the Colombian extreme right. The union in the diversity of the progressive movements of the left and the union in the diversity of the other ideologies of the continent. And then, I remember it perfectly, it was in Caracas, Venezuela, on December 2 and 3, 2011, when Commander Chavez was already ill, undergoing treatment, that the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States, CELAC, was founded, with the 33 Latin American states, from Mexico to Patagonia and the entire Caribbean, united for the first time, we could say that it was the great dream of the Amphictyonic Congress of the Liberator Simón Bolívar, a great unitary dream.

The lessons to be learned from this first spring for what is emerging now are tolerance, understanding and above all a deep understanding of the need to unite Latin America and the Caribbean in order to build a bloc of forces, a confederation of forces, countries and governments that will allow us to get through the rest of the 21st century. There are many intrigues, Ramonet, that is the right word, you see, there are many intrigues to divide us and try to say that there is the good left and the bad left, good progressivism and bad progressivism. Let us leave aside the intrigue, let us look at the faces of the others, with a clear plan for the union of Latin America and the Caribbean.

Ignacio Ramonet: Mr. President, the President-elect of the United States, Donald Trump, announced a few days ago that he was appointing a former ambassador, Mr. Richard Grenell, as presidential envoy for special missions and entrusted him, among other things, with monitoring relations with Venezuela. What is your opinion on this initiative?

Nicolás Maduro: I think it is good. Let’s wait for the President-elect of the United States, Donald Trump, to arrive at the White House.

Ignacio Ramonet: On January 20.

Nicolás Maduro: And, after he arrives at the White House, we will see, well. If you ask me: what is the policy of Bolivarianism in the 21st century? For us, the Bolivarians of the 21st century? What is the policy that Commander Chavez taught me? And what is the policy that I have practiced with the United States? I tell you: dialogue, respect and understanding. On this side, in this presidential chair, there is Nicolás Maduro Moros with the experience of all these years. And always ready to establish relations of respect, dialogue, cooperation, with the government of the United States, with American society – I hope that is the destiny of our relations.

Ignacio Ramonet: If Mr. Grenell shows up in Caracas, will you receive him?

Nicolás Maduro: Well, let’s wait for Donald Trump to arrive in the White House. And then we’ll see.

Ignacio Ramonet: Okay, Mr. President. Last question. The international situation today is very worrying. Obviously, we have already talked about some of the problems. A genocide is being committed, before our eyes, in Gaza, for 15 months and nobody is doing anything. Wars are multiplying. Not only in the Middle East, in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen. But also in Africa, in Sudan, the Sahara, the Congo. Inequality, migration, the climate issue that we have addressed here. The general feeling of citizens around the world is that there is no international authority. The world operates without a guide, without a way of using it. Do you think there are reasons to continue to believe in the United Nations system and international institutions?

Nicolás Maduro: I think we are in a transition. The transition from the hegemonic and imperial world, which lasted centuries. I could say millennia. But, above all, the world we know today is a world that emerged from the Second World War. There was a great change in the 90s, because the great power, the USSR and the world of real socialism, which was not socialism, which was not real, which was nothing, well, it collapsed. Today, a new balance of power has emerged, where there are great superpowers. The superpower of the 21st century is called the People's Republic of China. Other superpowers have emerged, the Russian Federation is another superpower, India, which in the past was called Bharat, the legendary name of a people that I love very much, the people of India. They are like the three most important superpowers and a set of advanced intermediate powers, such as the Islamic Republic of Iran, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey…

Ignacio Ramonet: The Republic of South Africa.

Nicolas Maduro: Yes, South Africa, they are intermediate powers in the development process. And independent countries and regions have emerged in Africa. In Africa, it is said that it is the powerful continent of the future, with its economic growth, and at the forefront are important countries, such as Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, among others.

Ignacio Ramonet: Ethiopia, Nigeria.

Nicolas Maduro: Everyone, Ethiopia, Nigeria. The whole process of decolonization of the former French colonies, the new axis that is emerging. And here also in Latin America. We have Brazil, which is the continental country, which is destined to be the great South American and Latin American power. Mexico too. Mexico, which had an excellent pilot for six years, President López Obrador, and now has an excellent pilot, President Claudia Sheinbaum. So there is a rearrangement of global forces, of the correlation of forces. And this has an effect on the multilateral organization that is the UN. The UN is currently experiencing a serious process of exhaustion, given the battle for power, because the Western empires have decided, by the way, to use their military power, their military technology, to threaten the world, to attack the world and to try to create conflicts in general. The conflict created between Ukraine and Russia, the massacre of the Palestinian people, which is a war of extermination, as Pope Francis said, it is not a war but a genocide. The massacre against the Lebanese people, now the bombings against the Syrian people, the latent threats against the people of Iraq, Iran, Jordan…

Ignacio Ramonet: From Yemen.

Nicolás Maduro: From Yemen. So there is a rearrangement. Let's see what comes out of this stage. We believe in international law, we denounce the use of UN mechanisms to favor the interests of the United States or the global Western empire, and we are in a dispute, in a struggle, no one should get tired. I am sure that in the end, universal values, international law, will prevail, and that in the end, the interests of the peoples of the world will prevail. But above all, that at the end of this road, the historical rights, the historical legacy of the peoples of the South, will prevail. So, let us understand that we are in a transition, in a very tough struggle for power, let us embrace the great causes that our people defend, and from Venezuela, we say, with Bolívar: let us move towards the balance of the world, where we can exist with our identity, with our project and our pride in being Venezuelans, Latin Americans and Caribbeans. We have many elements in the historical legacy to be able to understand and hold on to the future that belongs to us.

Exactly 30 years ago, Ramonet, I remember, it was in December 1994, when we were developing ideas for the future, Chavez began to talk to us about the multipolar world. And this youth, as young as we were, was surprised by his concept of a multipolar world. He explained it to people when we went out into the streets, when we went from neighborhood to neighborhood, from block to block with him, he would say to people: "the 20th century was stolen from us, the 19th century was stolen from us, but the 21st century will be our century and it will be a multipolar century." Here we are in the middle of a battle, it is our century, no one is going to take it away from us, let's be sure of that.

Ignacio Ramonet: Thank you very much, Mr. President. And once again, Happy New Year to you, to the Venezuelan people.

Nicolas Maduro: Well, congratulations.

Ignacio Ramonet: And see you next year, if you are kind enough to receive us again.

Nicolas Maduro: Of course, always at your service. And I greet all those who, through the networks and the media, are watching us, here in Venezuela, always in the battle and in victory.

Ignacio Ramonet: Thank you very much.

Nicolás Maduro: Thank you.

Source: La Jornada – “Venezuela is in peace, tranquility and security of its destiny and its journey”: Maduro

Translation to FRENCH: Thierry Deronne. TRANSLATION TO ENGLISH BY JULES LETAMBOUR

URL of this article: https://venezuelainfos.wordpress.com/2025/01/03/le-venezuela-est-en-paix-tranquille-et-sur-de-son-destin-et-de-sa-route-linterview-de-nicolas-maduro-par-ignacio-ramonet-january-2025/

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