Editor’s note: This conversation was recorded on Dec 5, 2024.

In just two weeks, the governments of Germany’s Olaf Scholz and France’s Michel Jean Barnier have fallen. These are just the latest signs of a political crisis in Europe that has escalated drastically since the start of the Ukraine War, which has brought inflation, deindustrialization, and instability throughout the continent. Peter Mertens, General Secretary of the Belgian Workers’ Party (PTB-PVDA) and a member of his country’s parliament, sees Europe’s crisis as a consequence of US attempts to forestall its decline through economic and military confrontation with a rising Global South. While loyalty to the US is taken for granted by most of Europe’s leaders, Mertens argues the future of the continent requires a break with the Atlanticist system. In this exclusive interview, The Real News speaks with Mertens on Europe’s future and the release of his new book, Mutiny: How the World Is Tilting. 

Post-Production: David Hebden
Additional Studio Support: Jon Prysner

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Ju-Hyun Park:

Welcome to The Real News. This is Ju-Hyun Park engagement editor at your favorite independent media outlet. I’m thrilled today to be joined by Peter Mertons, who is among many things, the General Secretary of the Belgian Workers Party, and the author of a new book published by 1804 books mutiny How our World is Tilting. Now, before we begin, I want to urge you listeners to head over to the real news.com/donate and become a sustainer of our work today. Because believe it or not, we are one of the only news outlets left that is entirely advertisement free. And it’s not because we take money from corporations on the side. We depend on you to keep our microphones on and our cameras rolling. So if you love what we do, please take a second to support us today. By now, just about everyone on this planet is used to waking up to a world turned upside down.

In the past couple of decades, working people around the world have weathered financial crisis, the COVID-19 Pandemic Wars and Climate Disaster After Climate disaster. Each catastrophe that befalls us seems even more unthinkable than the last and rightfully people are looking for answers. That’s what Peter Merton’s new book, mutiny seeks to do. It’s a wild ride through the ups and downs of global politics in the 21st century, going over everything from the cost of living crisis to the war in Ukraine and the rise of US China confrontation. It’s a short but vivid read and I basically devoured it over the last couple of days and I really cannot wait to get this discussion started. So Peter, welcome to The Real News. Thanks for joining us.

Peter Mertens:

Thanks for inviting me. I’m proud to be here.

Ju-Hyun Park:

I want to actually start off by asking you to introduce yourself to our audience because it’s not every day that we get to speak with the leader of a socialist party in Europe. So who is Peter Mertons and what inspired you to write this book?

Peter Mertens:

So I’m the General Secretary of the Workers Party of Belgium. Belgium being a small country in the midst of Europe, one 11 million people in Belgium, and we are now the fourth largest party in our country. I’m general secretary and I wrote this book a little bit for the audience in Europe and the working class in Europe because in my feeling what’s changing in the world, the upcoming breaks, the situation with China, the trade war, the US is waging against China, et cetera, the war, the real war against Russia. You cannot understand European politics. You cannot understand your situation as working class in Europe if you don’t have a worldview. And so I try to write an accessible book for the working class to open the windows of everyone and to see what’s happening in the world. That was a goal.

Ju-Hyun Park:

That’s absolutely excellent. I think you’ve given us a really good entry point into understanding the foundation of this. Now in your book you talk about several tipping points that are taking place around us today. Could you explain what these tipping points are and why it’s so important to center our understanding of the world in these events?

Peter Mertens:

Yeah, I grew up in the end of the eighties and beginning of the nineties, and obviously when the Soviet Union was stopped to exist in the Velvet Counter Revolution against existing socialism, you had all this talk, fukuyama talk about the end of history, which obviously is nonsense and total victory of capitalism and no one could even be allowed to think outside the box of capitalism that was being said in the nineties. And then you had all this spirit of neoliberalism and the United States was going to be the world’s leader on every topic. It should provide safety for everyone. And then that was in nineties and then beginning of the 21st century, more and more people were seeing that all these promises of this big world power, they were not delivering. And there was a Iraq war in 2003, which was a first game changer. And then you had the financial crush in 2007, eight, it became clear that even the money system, or mainly the money system, the financial system worldwide, it was not a safe place.

They said, okay, capitalism is good in doing the financial thing and socialism is bankruptcy. They always said that. And then in 2007, eight, it became clear, no, no capitalism is bankruptcy and we needed everyone’s money to save the banks and all this talk about there is no money anymore austerity of the austerity of the austerity. Then they needed all our money to save the banks and the private banks. It was 2007 eight, and it was logic that some countries in the global south, they put themselves together and say, okay, can we cooperate to try to find another financial system? Was the financial crisis on Wall Street was the beginning of the birth of the bricks. It’s interesting to see that dynamics. And then you had the Copenhagen Summit in 2010, nine where they promised the 100 billion aid to global south countries. And today with the summit, the climate summit that we had this year, they were not delivering all these promises.

And then you had obviously the Covid crisis in 2020 where the Western worlds, they kept the vaccines for themselves and all these tipping points made clear that, okay, at the end of the day it is called imperialism. At the end of the day it is called financial capitalist system ruling out the world like always. And then there came the Ukraine War in 2022. And at that point there was someone in the National Security Council of the United States, Fiona Hill, and she saw that most of the countries were against the sanctions towards Russia when there was proposals to get sanctions, financial sanctions towards Russia in this war, most of the countries were against it. And then she said, oh, that’s mutiny. And I thought, okay, that’s an interesting phrase because if you don’t follow the orders of Wall Street anymore, if you don’t follow the orders of the United States anymore, you’re in some kind of mutan.

I thought, okay, let’s embrace this kind of mutiny of raising voice of some countries in the global south saying no towards this world order. And then after I finished, the book came I think the sixth tipping point, and that is the genocide against the Palestinians. And I think everywhere in the world people can see we have a genocide and it’s fueled by the Israeli apartheid state, but it’s mainly fueled by the economic and military support from the US and by the military and economic support of the European Union. Also, for example, Germany, 20% of the arms towards Israels comes from Germany. And I think all these tipping points made clear that there is some shift going on in the world. Europe was in decline after world wari after 45, Europe was already beginning to come in decline, the US took over as a big power, imperial power.

But nowadays we are on a tectonic plate where the shift is going to Asia, to South Asia, to China, to India and there the rising powers, economically economic powers. We are in my opinion, at the beginning of the decline of the us I mean the beginning because obviously it’s still a big economic power, obviously it’s a big financial power, the dollar is still controlling the world and obviously it’s mainly a big military power with 800 base. But when these tectonic plates on earth are shifting, there’s a lot of things possible and there is a lot of rage among working class people everywhere. And this race can be directed in different direction, maybe also in a rightwing direction. Maybe also one cause of some people voting for Trump is based on this race and a race against this political system that cannot cope with basic things like healthcare, like housing, like security, et cetera. And we are in a turmoil, and I think for Democrats, for socialists, for Marxists, we have to keep our head clear and search an orientation, midst this term model.

Ju-Hyun Park:

Yeah, that’s absolutely fascinating. I think what you’re describing is that we have been under a world system that was a few decades ago just taken for granted to be dominated by a single power, by a single kind of economic system that we call capitalism. And these tipping points that you’re describing, these crises that are roiling through the world are really changing not just the balance of power between states, but they’re also opening up questions about what sort of future is really possible and who is going to be in command of that future, not just at the level of nations, but also at the level of classes. Is it going to be the billionaires on Wall Street who decide what the future of the world is going to look like or is it going to be the majority of people who actually produce the wealth of our planet through the work that we do right through our labor?

I want to kind of zero in on something that you started to discuss in your answer that you just gave regarding the kind of boiling anger that we’re seeing around the world, right? Because look, times are incredibly hard. We’ve been hit with wave after wave of these crises, these tipping points you’re describing, and one of the biggest manifestations of that is the cost of living crisis, which is global. It’s affecting food, it’s affecting energy, it’s affecting all kinds of basic commodities and necessities that people live to. People need to have just a dignified life. And here in the US I mean it was certainly a major factor in the outcome of the last election. Now, I want to ask you about this in particular because there’s a lot of shorthand explanations that are out there as to why the cost of living crisis or why runaway inflation has occurred.

And we tend to peg it to particular events. We just sort of say like, oh, it’s because of Covid, because the Ukraine war. And then you get even kookier answer like, oh, the migrants are doing it. And there’s even worse explanations than that, which I’m not going to repeat on this interview, but I want to kind of give you the floor and give you the opportunity to give an explanation for where the cost of living crisis actually comes from. What are the real economic forces that are driving this burning hole in our wallets that everyone is feeling right now?

Peter Mertens:

First of all, I think there’s two main factors. The first factor is that the production change globally are interconnected, and that means that if you buy a cell phone, the different parts with the cell phone are produced worldwide. And it’s also a vulnerable point of capitalism today, this just in time production, the fact that it is global, the production chains are global, and when there is an event like the Swiss canal being blocked by one ship, there is a big problem, supply problem in this chain. And when this ship was blocking the service canal in Europe, several factories, automotive factories where on technical layoff during this period because there were no parts, they were blocked in the containers in the Sue Canal. And nowadays, I think every single event like a war or a block blockade of the

Ju-Hyun Park:

Sue canal or the war around the service channel or a storm

Peter Mertens:

Can hit this global production chain. So that’s one objective factor. The objective factor is also that in the food systems, the climate change is really influencing the food production worldwide. And all these events tend to push up the price. That’s an objective factor. But on the other hand, we see, and that is really the big thing they’ve been hiding like after the war in Ukraine and amidst the mist around this war, amidst the fuck around all this war, the big corporations, the big multinationals use the fuck to lift up their prices.

And so they’re misusing the situation from Covid. They’re misusing the situation from the war in Russia. They’re misusing the situation of possible floods or events of Swiss canal location to even lift up the prices and making super profits. And if you see the prices in the food sector during the first year in 2022 of the Ukraine war, it was crazy. It was not the war causing this mega food prices, it was the food multinationals themselves, like Cargill, they misused their monopolic situation on the food market. And the same happened in the oil sector and in the gas sector. They used the situation of the war to get up higher and higher prices and sur profit, extra profit windfall profits, working class people everywhere paid. And I’m in the Belgium parliament and the traditional political clause, they’re saying everywhere. Also in the parliament in Belgium, they came to the parliament with a scarf and they said to the people, look, you have to turn down your heating system in your houses due in winter and get a scarf.

And everyone was okay, we are doing that already all winter. We don’t need you to tell us you have to do something about the, and all this political clause, all this political clause, they served the interest of the big food corporation and the big oil corporation and they didn’t want to discuss even a possible cap on energy prices. They didn’t want to discuss even a possible cap on food prices. And so the inflation was a cost struggle. At the end of the day, the inflation is a clause struggle from the ruling clause towards the working class and this redistribution mechanism. All this, we’ve seen it, there’s a lot of discussion also economically on this, but at the end of the day, the inflation was used to be a distribution system in all capitalism. And then they said, okay, it’s the salaries. They are at the beginning of the inflation, no, not at all, but now they will cut the salaries if, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Ju-Hyun Park:

I mean, I think that’s just so emblematic, right? They’re always willing to cut salaries, they’re always willing to cut jobs, they’re always willing to cut the budgets for social programs, but then where is the cut in the profit

These people are making, right? Because it’s coming at the expense of all of the rest of us. And I think you’ve painted a really vivid picture of what is really going on in Europe at this time. And I actually want to dig down into that question a little bit more because I think something that is really important to the outcome of the next couple of decades is really the path that Europe chooses in this changing world, right? Because as you alluded to earlier, Europe used to be at the top of the food chain when it came to global politics. That has changed very drastically, not just since World War ii, but very particularly in the last few years, right? You talk about in your book how essentially US finance is eating European industry alive, right? Europe is being hollowed out economically as a result of these big shifts that have occurred particularly since the start of the Ukraine war.

And you also discuss a bit how there is a debate within Europe in terms of not only how to the ways in which these financial tides are affecting the lives of everyday people, but also the future of global politics as we see the rise of China and the bricks. So in your estimation, what is the path that Europe is currently on and what do you see as the path that Europe needs to take in order to not only secure a better future for workers in Europe, but hopefully a better future for the rest of the world as well?

Peter Mertens:

Yeah. First of all, let me say now we had the elections in the United States and there is some upper middle class in Europe existing also in the press and also on the television where it’s a school master attitude lecturing to stupid Americans that voted Trump. And so is this, did there we call it in French, they’re looking down to the people in the United States, but at the same time, the same is happening in Europe. And the situation of Europe at this day is even worse than I think the situation is in the US because Europe is a losing continent and they will continue to lose with this strategy. So you’re absolutely right. A tipping point in Europe was a Ukraine war. After World War ii, Germany said, okay, we won’t participate anymore in a global war. We had two times in the 20th century an imperialist German war, first world war, and secondly, the fascism in the second World war.

And then they said, okay, there was an agreement in Germany not to have a big army, not to have an interventionist army globally. It was the idea. And then with the Ukraine war, it changed overnight by oppression by Washington, this politics of 75 years of agreement of a non-military rise, Germany has changed. And they became dependent on the us. Washington was asking Berlin to change the policy and to invest more in NATO and to invest more in armament. And they get overnight 100 billion euros, which is huge for Germany. That was not spent anymore for schools, not spent anymore for public transportation, et cetera, but spending on the war and it was a game changer. Secondly, Washington, US, Berlin, you have to cut down the energy supply from Russia, you have to sanction Russia because they’re the bad boys and the bad girls. You have to sanction Russia.

And the Germans, unbelievably they did it and they cut down the Nord stream pipeline and the energy supplies for their big companies like BIF, like Siemens, like BMV Volkswagen and all the export driven economists manufacturing industry in Germany was being fueled by cheap Russian gas. And so Washington said, cut this gas, Berlin did it. And since then, now Germany for two years is in recession and it’s the biggest industrial economy in all of Europe. It’s export driven economy, and they shot themselves in the feet. And thirdly, us was very clever at the same time with Biden and IRA, the Inflation reduction Act, and there’s all these billions to attract also European firms to come over to the United States. And so there was a process of deindustrialization going on in Europe, and it happened in two year times, and I was sitting, you could watch it like a television series.

What is Europe doing? Is there even still a European capitalist class, a European bourgeoisie? Why don’t they react as a European class, a bourgeois class? No, they made themselves totally dependent on the US and it was a shift in two years. Next point is that at the same time, France becoming bigger and bigger, the historic, I will put it in another way, after World War II, was also the agreement that the acts between Germany and France would be the base of Europe, like the three big continental wars, 18 71, 19 14, and 1914, where between Germany and France and after three continental wars, it was an agreement. France the military, Germany, the economy, simple version, and together European Union, now it’s becoming more and more problematic, this base access from Europe. And that’s another point Washington has played it very cleverly because they pushed on the enlargement of the European Union to the east, which countries came to the European Poland and the Beltic states, and what’s happening with Poland and the Beltic states, Poland and big country, big economy, totally, totally anti-Common and in favor of Washington, Baltic states, totally anti-Common and in favor of Washington.

And you get an enlargement of the European Union, which at the same time is an enlarge enlargement of the NATO thoughts and the traditional acts between Berlin and Paris is slowly being replaced by a new Acts, Berlin war show, and the Baltic states, and you see it in the new European Commission now, and it’s a losing strategy because this losing strategy of being only following the United States, it’ll not help Europe. And that is the point, Europe, yes, it’s pathetic. There are no European leaders anymore. France is in total, Chris Macron, the French president has no majority at all. The

Ju-Hyun Park:

Government just fell yesterday, right?

Peter Mertens:

And they were not able to do anything without the support of the extreme, right? The fascist party, Blemo National Germany was in crisis. There will be new elections in February. And so the only of the three major countries with the government is Italy the third, the biggest country with an extreme right government of Maloney. So the political situation of Europe is catastrophic. And so that’s the situation. And in nearly 2, 3, 4 years, they strangled themselves, the European bourgeoisie. It is rather crazy in my opinion, what happened. And of course, all these things in the ruling clause not being able to rule anymore, like Lenin said at one time, it is ordinary people paying the price of it all. It’s ordinary people, they’re seeing this. There is no leadership, there is no inspiration, there is no ruling clause being et cetera. And the crisis after crisis, after austerity, after austerity, et cetera, like in Germany, public schools aren’t functioning anymore. Public transport, Germany was once known when I was a young kid, everyone said, okay, you have to Deutsche Gru, so Germany is German equals to something very good quality in my youth, German goods, German, Siemens, German

Ju-Hyun Park:

Cars, automobiles,

Peter Mertens:

Cars, quality, blah blah. No, everyones okay. It changed a lot. And then there is, and then you see in Europe finally that what have they done the last 30 years concerning innovation concerning science, development of science, et cetera. They were lazy. They get austerity after austerity. They didn’t activate all the billions on the summit of society and they did not innovate. And all the innovation is gone, all the technology, the new technology, the real new it is in China and in India. The automotive problem is a problem of energy, of course is a problem of export and tariffs of course, but it’s mainly a problem of technology. Volkswagen is way, way, way, way behind build your dreams and other car factory way behind on the most strategic sectors, on the most strategic minerals to be produced and manufactured. Europe is way behind. And there’s a situation, and if Europe, in my opinion, second part of your question, will not find a search its own way for development in respect with a new situation in the world, it will not lost because I think there has always been a tendency when there were, if you have superpowers in decline like Europe now for a longer time, there’s a denial process.

There are some forces. They do think Europe is still the big I Britannia rules the wave thing, the imperial thing. No, they don’t rule anything. They even don’t, can’t rule their own country anymore. So there is a denial process and there has to be a shift. And then the second reaction is, okay, US will save us, Trump will save us. But neither the denial process, neither the savior hope from other forces. Europe has to reinvent itself, have to be able to have deals, honest deals with the brick countries, with the new ed countries, has to be in cooperation with all these countries instead of trying to have new imperialism like the French did in the sa, they were kicked out in the SA everywhere, the French imperialism, and they will be kicked out everywhere that the European imperialists themselves. So they have to reinvent. I don’t know whether it’s going to happen.

I don’t know really. I don’t know. Where are the European leaders? I don’t know. I can only say that from a working class point of view, from those who produce the wells, they need to have this struggle in the European level with this other perspective, non imperial perspective, an autonomous perspective, cut the ties with Washington, cut the ties with nato, et cetera, and get their own development and own industrial plan for the European and own vision about honest relations with Africa and other countries. It is in the interest of the working class and the future of the working people in the European Union to have this perspective because otherwise we will end very badly. The working class will end very badly also in European because, okay, at the end of the day that the imperialists and the capitalists and Bradley is not my problem, that the working clause have no future. There is no manufacturing industry that all these capacities of young people, et cetera are spoiled in Europe. That no, there has to be a future in that direction, I think.

Ju-Hyun Park:

Yeah, I think you’ve painted a very grim, but also a very invigorating picture in some way, right? Because we can see how rapidly not just a single country, because Europe as an entire region can just be brought to its knees. One of the former manufacturing hubs of the world is now no longer able to call itself that. And it’s not just because there’s been a rise in new powers like China, but it’s also fundamentally because they have a parasitic relationship with this country that calls itself their ally, but then goes and essentially steals their whole economy out from under them. And I’m glad you also brought in Donald Trump into the discussion because I think this dynamic you’re describing is exactly what Donald Trump says other countries are going to do to the United States, which is the reason why it seems that the only policy he is really pushing forward, aside from racism and being awful to migrants, is to push forward this plan for what is now increasingly looking like just an entirely global trade war, right?

It’s not just against China, although of course he was in investing against China most strongly, but in recent weeks he is threatened to impose 100% tariffs on the Brix countries if they cease to use the dollar and create their own currency. He’s even starting beef with not just Mexico, but Canada of all places. And we’ve had a lot of guests on the Real news recently, including Richard Wolf. Great interview by the way, from my colleagues Taya and Steven, absolutely recommend checking that out for you listeners. But we’ve already had some explanation about how these tariffs are going to blow back on the US economy and really burn a hole in people’s wallets. But what I’m wondering if you can explain is what’s the motivation? What’s the global kind of historical conjuncture that’s driving a figure like Trump to say, we’re going to just wage trade wars on the entire world. We know it’s going to affect us at our pockets, but we need a real explanation. Is it just because he’s a bad man or something? Or is there an underlying process that figures like Trump are responding to?

Peter Mertens:

I do think that if you see the lost 30 years of this stage of capitalism, which was called an is called neoliberalism. It’s just a stage of capitalism. It’s not another form. It’s one stage of capitalism to open up the global markets for the export of capital and for the theft of resources everywhere on the planet. On this stage of neoliberalism, we have seen that in 30 years a lot of manufacturing industry left the united. And at one point there was even I quote it in the book, there was even the situation that China and the South, the global south had the manufacturing industries and the financial industries were controlled by Wall Street, by the institutions of the United States. And that was the task division from the neo liberal point of view. And then at one point in this global economy, we see the vulnerability of all the situation.

And on the other hand, we see that people like in US and everywhere where there was this process of de-industrialization, they don’t cope with it anymore. They are in anger in the so-called rust belt. People were angry because they destroyed working class neighbors, working class cities, working class organizations, and they destroyed a lot of the country. It was a destruction politics. Also here inside, I think there was an objective base for a discourse for reindustrialization, so that at one point there was a reaction to this 30 years of neoliberalism saying, okay, we need again manufacturing politics in the US or in north of France or wherever. And that is objectively correct I think. And then is the question, how do we do it? And then comes in this protectionist politics and from the neoliberal phase we are going to a more protectionist politics. But it came together not only with the protectionist politics, but also with the geopolitical enemy in heads, namely China and all these measures, this protection, these walls of tariff from Trump won, but also from Biden, because Biden, he installed most of these tariffs and most of these Biden economics and geopolitically, it was against China.

It was the beginning of the trade war. And that’s problematic because the new industry is not an industrial plan. It is a war plan against China that is happening. And I think from this base on there is a tariff discussion, I think the most important thing for Trump and for Biden and Trump will maybe continue this politics with the tariffs against China is that way. I cannot see why he could have terrorists against Mexico and Canada. It’s up to you to explain, I don’t know. I am not living here economically. It makes no sense because all the parts of the goods coming from Mexico, I’m sure you have discussed that in the show, 40% of the manufacturing and automotive manufacturing in the US depending on some parts coming from Mexico, if you have tariffs coming from there, everything is becoming more expensive. 60% of the trade relation I’ve been told between Canada and the US is about oil is about gas. If you have tariffs of 10, 20%, who will pay it economically? It’s crazy. But maybe I think the tariffs against China are for real, will

Ju-Hyun Park:

Stay

Peter Mertens:

Because that’s the strategic enemy. That’s the words used in Washington. I don’t know whether the tariffs against Mexico or Canada, in which way they will be real, in which way there will be oppression in which way there will be a manner to get more oppression on Mexico to close down even more the border. I don’t know. And that’s up to you economically. It makes no sense. And I’ve been told from a European point of view, you have this president and he won on two main points, peace president and working class fringe against inflation he is doing. And on these two points, what’s his program? At the end of the day, on the point of being the big friend of the working class, he will not change the lack of social security in the United States. No, he will worsen it. He will not change the right to be a member of trade union in the United States.

No, it’ll worsen it. It will not change the hope and the engagement of all the youth for Palestine. No, he will try forbid it all. And at the end of the day, life will be much more expensive with all these tariff measures from, so he’s no friend of the working class, okay, it’ll be the country. And on the other hand, on being the so-called peace president, apart from the situation from Ukraine, which the debate apartment, who is he appointing as a new ambassador in Israel? A hawk who says that there’s no such thing as the West Bank. There is no such thing as Gaza. There is even no such thing as a Palestinian disgusting. It is disgusting and it’s war language and it’s preparing war because language does matter. Words do matter. Words do prepare genocides, dehumanization of people, dehumanization of situation, do prepare wars, et cetera.

And he’s doing that and he’s doing that more and more also against the Chinese. So this president that has been elected to be the friend of the working class on the one hand, and the peace president on the other hand seems to have a totally other politics, maybe not in total rupture with Biden because it’s not white, black. It’s the same military industrial complex is the same empire at the end of the day. But okay, the tendency that’s being constructed by the cabinet of Trump is not very good. And big question will be, will there’ll be a second breadth for the people’s movements in the United States? Will there be a second breadth for the trade unions in the United States? And how can we make that all this potential resistance and all this potential anger that’s going to be against Trump? There will be anger, there will be fury also against the politics of Trump.

People will say, okay, but that’s not why I voted for Trump even. But how this layer of people, these people who will be angry on Trump, how can we organize orientate these people together with the anger and the people’s movement in the global south? And the metaphor of the book is also mutiny in the global norm, obviously is a metaphor. Mutiny as a form of class struggle. That is not ent, it’s just mutiny saying no, but the mutant in the global north, it’ll continue. Maybe not politicized, maybe not so conscious, but there is a mutant, there is an anger, there is a fury. And if we can find some ways to connect what’s happening in Brazil, what’s happening in India, what’s happening in the global south with I think it can be opening windows, opportunities, pots for socialism, pots for democracy, real democracy. If we do it like that, I know it’s fake. I know the book doesn’t pretend to have all answers. I think we have to search orientations and directions, and that’s the meaning one of the goals of the

Ju-Hyun Park:

Book. Well, I think that’s an absolutely tremendous answer and we’re coming up on the end of our time. I feel like what you’ve sort of described for us is that it can feel a lot of the times like we’re just circling the drain, right? Every single moment just leads to worse and worse outcomes. But even as that is happening, even as we watch the system destroy itself in the process of attempting to preserve itself, there are also these opportunities that arise. And we have to remember that we are in the global majority, right? It’s not just a matter of workers being in the majority, in the advanced economies of the world, but also the fact that we have a common struggle with people around the world. And I think that internationalism is really at the heart of this book from what I was able to glean from it. And I think I just really want to reiterate our appreciation for you coming here to New York to have these discussions with us I think is really important to have this sort of dialogue across our struggles and across our contexts. Now, before we wrap up, I want to kind of give you the opportunity to share any sort of final message you might have for our audience and also let us know how can we keep up with you, how can we continue to engage in the thought and the work that you’re doing?

Peter Mertens:

Okay, well, really thank you for having this possibility of dialogue because I really believe in an honest dialogue of people resisting the empire, people resisting the ruling class, people searching for an answer. And I think in order to be a good teacher, you have to keep being a good pupil all your life. Everyone has to learn. There’s no one with all the answers. We are learning different experience. And I think globally, we tend to overestimate the power of the ruling clause and underestimate our own power. And in my experience when I’m talking in Berlin, in London or in Brussels, this capitalist system makes ordinary people feel very, very, very small. And I think socialist politics, Marxist politics is all about empowering people, making them feel they’re the wealth producing class. At the end of the day, their belonging is big class that produce all the wealth and that’s the class of the future and make them feel great again, not America great again, not Germany, great again, not Europe, but the working class.

Great. Again, that is a powerful thing and it’s really possible with all we will try. We have not a golden magic way, but trust in people having leadership among the working class and the global people’s movement in the south, there is a lot of possibilities. I think we are on a specific timeline in history. It’ll be harsh, it’ll be bloody. The genocide is crazy. The wars are crazy, that racism is crazy. But among all this turmoil and among all this, fuck there possibilities for those that say we don’t accept capitalism, we don’t accept imperialism. We want to create a world as it should be. We want to create a world for working class for peasants, for peoples, with people’s, right? The truth is on our side, and I don’t say it easily, I don’t like big slogans, but I mean it the truth, the truth and the future of humanity and humanitarian basic needs.

It’s on the side of socialists, on the side of people’s movement. So we have a world to win and the parts to win this world will be chaotic, will be messy and cetera, but we have to trust in ourself and trust in the goal, trust in our socialist project people, and I will end with that. People, they won’t join losers. No, no, no. And they’re right. You should not join a loser. Don’t do it. In Europe, there are some left-wing debate clubs and they are organizing seminars on fascism. And if you are not depressed entering the debate club, you’re surely depressed when you exit, but that’s now left. You have to empower people. You have to trust yourself. Not to be arrogant, no, no, no, but trust in your socialist project, trust working class people at the end of the day, trust people’s movement. And then with an international list perspective, with a working class identity, you can come. There’s a world to win, and at the end, maybe not our generation, but at the end we will win.

Ju-Hyun Park:

Yeah. Well, I think that’s a wonderful note to end on. So once again, you’ve been listening to The Real News. This is Ju-Hyun Park, and our guest today was Peter Merton’s, author of the new book, mutiny, which you can purchase at 1804 books. Now, before we leave today, as always, we want to extend our immense gratitude from the entire team At The Real News to you, our loyal listeners, we couldn’t do anything we do without your support and you always deserve our highest praise. I want to also extend my personal gratitude to the Real News studio team who make everything possible. That’s David Hebdon, Kayla Rivera, Cameron Grino, Adam Coley, and Alina Neek. Special thanks in this instance as well to the People’s Forum who provided the space today for Peter and I to record in person here in New York City, as well as our colleagues over at Breakthrough News, in particular to John p Priner, who was kind enough to lend us technical support for today’s episode. We hope today’s discussion will help equip you with the information and the inspiration you need to not only comprehend the vast changes taking place around us, but also to play a role in shaping the history to come. After all, that is the real reason we do what we do, so you can go out there and play your part in building a Better Tomorrow. I’m Ju-Hyun Park for The Real News, and we will catch you next time.

https://therealnews.com/europes-decline-is-more-evident-than-ever-is-the-us-to-blame

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